1. I guess everyone is still shocked with the imported Pathologist from Thailand, Dr Porntip Rojanasunan (Dr PR) revelation that there is 80% probability that TBH died from Homicide and not suicide. As usual, I prefer to analyze the exact facts reveal during inquest by visiting the AG Chamber website but I found that the “Nota Keterangan” has not been updated since 14 Aug 2009. The video recording was has a poor audio quality and I really need to read the “Explanatory Notes” to digest what was asked and what was said by all parties.
2.. As I do not have access to the crucial information, I have to rely on what was printed in the MSM as well as on the online media. To ensure consistency, I use The Star, NST, Malaysian Insider, Malaysiakini and Malaysian Mirror as my source of reference.
3. Some people are wondering on how Dr PR came to this 80% conclusion. I can safely say that is based on facts and her own personal experience. She would then make a guesstimate on the probability that TBH was murdered and did not commit suicide. We must appreciate that Dr PR came to the conclusion without examining the actual body but based on document review which includes photos, reports and the reports by her 2 assistance that came over several months back. I will try to explain in the simple manner on how Dr PR arrived at this conclusion.
4. Dr PR concluded that that TBH was unconscious and was already injured when he exited the window based on the type, severity and location of injuries. It appears that TBH has two types of injuries. One is due to the fall and the other is due to physical abuses. She concluded that in the absence of reactive injury when the late TBH impacted the floor, he must be unconscious.
5. Firstly, Dr PR concluded that he was unconscious because she expected that someone that is conscious during a fall would cushion his/her fall with an outstretched hand. This is a common sense which I believe many people who had slipped would have experience injuries on the hand or wrist as a result of the body reflex where the person hand would automatically be outstretched. At the height, speed and momentum, one would expect severe injuries to the hands but in this case there were none. For this reason she concluded TBH was unconscious. This is a fair, simple and acceptable argument.
6. The second issue is that whether TBH has injuries consistent with a fall from height. In this aspect, Dr PR agreed with Malaysian doctors that there is substantial evidence to show that there is a fall from height. Among others, these include the leg and hip fractures. Again this is a reasonable and fair conclusion.
7. The other significant comment that was highlighted by Dr PR that indicates that TBH was brutalized before being thrown out of the window is based on several signs on the body. The first being the skull fracture where she said is consistent with a blunt trauma. In this case, the skull injury does not match those that are due to the fall. Personally, I think both side of the camp can split hair and probably there is a strong probability that both parties are right in the sense that it is hard to differentiate the outcome of an injury due to a fall and due to a blunt trauma.
8. The most damaging evidence came from the findings of Dr PR on the signs of strangulation around the neck. A quick review of the pathologist report (Item No 5, pg 7 and Item under heading of injuries on page 3) showed that the Malaysian Pathologist acknowledge the presence of the wound but did not account for the reason of the wound. Certainly, Dr PR has a point as she demonstrated how the wound would have come about i.e. by manual strangulation.
9. Another interesting interpretation by Dr PR is with regards to the anal wound. Again the Malaysian Pathologist noted the presence of a penetrating wound injury measuring 2cmx6cm (Item 7 and 8, page No4) (item 7, 8 page No8 ) but did not take into account the cause of this injury when making their conclusions. Dr PR claim such a longitudinal wound must have been due to a penetrating injury rather that the fractures around the hip. This is also logical
10. From Dr PR findings, it is obvious that the Malaysian doctors actually saw what Dr PR saw but did not take into account the seriousness of the two injuries at the neck and anus. Is there a possibility that they had intentionally omitted their conclusions on these two injuries? If there is such a possibility, then why did they do it? A senior pathologist like Dr Khairul surely could not have concluded that the injury especially in the neck is due to a fall from height.
11. Based on Dr PR explanation, I believe the Malaysian doctors need to revisit their findings again and analyze it. They need to find a solid argument to counter the findings of Dr PR. I would say they are in a better position to do so because they examined the body and Dr PR did not. Finding a solid yet acceptable argument may not be easy in light of things that have happened.
12. Based on my own analysis, I concur with Dr PR that TBH was unconscious when he exited the window. I concurred with her findings that TBH sustained some injuries that is due to a fall from height. I have no access to the body and post mortem pictures but Dr PR has seen TBH post mortem pictures. In that aspect, I gave her the vote that TBH was brutalized before being thrown out of the window. My position remains the same unless the Malaysian Pathologist can provide some simple, reasonable and logical explanation with regards to the injury of the neck and anus. In the meantime, the general feeling is that the people believe that that there is an interdepartmental collaboration to COVER UP rather than to solve the crime.
Reference
TBH Post Mortem report
A trajectory of Teoh Beng Hock fall from height http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScsBFYtHc1Y&feature=related
Dr Pornthip’s report addressed to Malik : http://www.agc.gov.my/agc/pdf/inkues/Stmedia_261009.pdf
Dr. Pornthip is only being diplomatic when she said 80% homicide and 20% suicide.
For such a massive anus puncture the victim even if still conscious would be in great pain and unable to walk to the window, open it and climb out..
Hence we can discount suicide entirely. Agree dr. raffick?
Dear KB
(1) Agree with your conclusion.
(2) When we look at the theory of suicide, we have to look at many other things apart from Post Mortem (PM) findings. Among others this include:
(1) Motives
(2) State of mind
(3) PM findings
(4) Investigator finding
I must say that in my assessment motive is weak, state of mind neutral to stressed, PM findings does not support suicide and investigator report is doubtful.
check this idiot out!
http://theunspinners.blogspot.com/2009/10/unspin-thai-blog-questioned-dr-porno.html
Dear oettinger and reader of DrRafick’s blog,
the unspinners wrote “Why is the Selangor Government paying her exorbitant fees if not to suit their own selfish purpose to coverup their wrongdoings?”
Yes, the Selangor Government paid a fees for Dr Pornthip’s services BUT not directly to her.
The interview of Mr Philip Golingai with Dr Pornthip should clarify this issue.
“I was told that they (Selangor government) wanted an independent pathologist as they did not believe in the transparency of the government service … just like in Thailand,” said the flamboyant 54-year-old independent-minded examiner, in reference to the opaque Thai police and Thai forensic experts she constantly contradicted throughout her career.
Porntip agreed to the request after receiving the green light from her BOSS, the Ministry of Justice permanent secretary.
“I was asked about my professional fee. But I said NO. I work for the Government and if there is any payment it should be Government to Government,” explained Porntip, who sported a multi-coloured retro-punk hairstyle and wore jeans and Dr Martens boots during the interview conducted at her office in Nonthaburi near Bangkok.
Source : http://philipgolingai.blogspot.com/2009/08/dr-death-surprised-by-call-from-msia.html
Dear oetingger,
Selamat pagi, good to see you again.
That blog “unspinners” – NOT 1 blogger But a TEAM set up in mid 2009.
Part of the UMNO cybertroopers – Original intention to discredit DSAI using the traitor tag.
Hope readers here get the message about that blogspot.
Got to go…2nd half of MU match in progress..GOAL !
I watched the video recording in which Dr.Porntip gave her forensic phatologist oppinion(professinal and forensic expert).
Her “limitation” are not inspecting the the scene of incident by herself and not able to conduct or present during the pm of tbh body and DNA and toxicology analysis.
She had no opportunity to have a “discussion” with the two local phatologist who were at the scene and done the postmortem.
Both side of the law team should at least have one medico legal expert in order to understand the medical science aswell as the legal aspect in this kind of scenario.
Medical and forensic science are base on facts for conclusion whereby laws are base on facts aswell as creating doubt on certain aspect (law has it twist and turn).
After Dr.Porntip had given her expert opinion, it is best for all parties including tbh’s family to get permission “legally” to have a second pm done by her or she is included in the team of phatologist who will carry out the second pm.
Or the RCI scope should be “expanded” to include how,where,who and why tbh life ended as such.
In any case all parties whether the gov or tbh family should seriously consider a second postmortem for both side want justice to prevail.
Pelangisenja
(1) I assume you are familiar with the term Meta Analysis. Dr PR did just that based on pictures, documents and reports from her staff.
(2) I believe she place great trust in her selected staff
(3) She had actually accepted the examination findings of the Malaysian doctors without questions but disagree on the interpretation of some critical findings which led to a different conclusion.
(3) Another PM will help but I doubt it will make much difference. A lot of people says that it has been too long and the findings of another PM is not accurate. Well the forensic science takes into account of the decaying process and they work back words and come out with a conclusion
drrafick,
I agree to all your points as you are a medical man and well verse in the field.
But, I am not so sure whether her Meta Analysis alone has such a “legal binding and desired impact” and can be taken into account in toto in order to assist the court to reach a verdict. Maybe a non partisan legal expert can give us some explanation on this.
pelangisenja,
Since when did you become a Forensic Science Consultant to comment on Dr. Rafick term ” Meta Analysis “.
By the way let’s have another postmortem done without the participation of our two learned pathologist ( one local and the other cari makan ) this team should be headed by Dr. Porntip and a team of expert comprising forensic pathologist from the Asean & Commonwealth countries.
Then truth will prevail…., if not, we are heading down the drain…..as far has the general public and the world perceive. Coroners turn to make the move.
balasi,,
I have to agree with you. Malaysia has reached to that stage,,that any Police Investigations, MACC interogations, Post Mortem is done or Royal commission is set up, we should involve, Scotland Yard, MACC Hong Kong independant consultants from ASEAN OR Judges from COMMONWEALTH COUNTRIES. Thats the sate of trust we have in our Government Agencies.
Dr. Amrit,
If we had the confidence…., with all the agencies mention…., then we don’t need to doubt and get PORN over…..say you and me…..!
Just get it over and get the second PM done, so we can go back to our normal routine.
If the Coroner fail to realise this ….., then we all know where this country is heading……, Bye bye Bro.
It was just great in Scotland Road.!!!!
balasi,
What going on at Scotland Road. Hinting that you go home at the time the cock starting to crow. Must be some fun there hah ? 8)
pelangisenja,
Doing some homework quietly hah ? Thank you that you share your thought and discovery. 8)
nxforget,
no lah, not homework but infact no work
thank you for accommodating without discrimination different views and thoughts from all walk of life.
I am very pleased to hear that the honourable Coroner’s Court had made a decision to allow the exhumation of TBH body inorder to do a second pm.
May the truth prevail.Justice is for all.
With all these cover ups. The two doctors are total shame to the medical profession. In this country we have too many shameful professionals. Why? Because bad and corrupt government breeds bad and corrupt people.
So now the bug stops at the desk of the PM because MACC reports to him.
some think they have no choice but they forget their oath and they need to be professional. they do not seem to care for their reputation. Others are scared to the right thing. we have very little people in govt and laws who are willing to the right thing and uphold the law
Rocky
One need to understand the meaning of the professionalism. When I was in the Armed Forces, it was very difficult in being truly professional because I belong to the organization that follow orders.
In my current civilian outfit it is easier despite me reporting to a boss. He will accept my decision and I will not sign anything that I do not agree with.
I understand the predicament facing the two doctors. It can be hard sometimes.
Dr. Rafick,
Does it imply that when you wear a uniform or when you are a civil servant…., you must subscribe to MORAL wrong doings as ordered because of the professionalism of your career….., and does it also imply that in this order of perspective ….you must be prepared to sell yourself not less your own MOTHER.
Correct me if I’m wrong….., time to put our foot down.
Dr Rafick
Here is something for your expert consideration as a medical doctor (if you are not aware of this matter that is developing in other part of the world)…
The link below is from an Austrian journalist exposing the criminal act related to the H1N1 and its vaccine.
http://www.theflucase.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=1&Itemid=64&lang=en
A question for your consideration is, would you or your family take this vaccine should our government make it a mandatory program for all Malaysia? Do you think this vaccine is safe and fully tested?
I await your thought on this.
Thank you and best regards
Some say Pornthip’s verdict is not valid beacuse it is ‘arm chair’ pronouncements as it were.
I would point out that in the Kugan case, Dr.Merican, Chief of Malaysia Medical Council, also came out with his findings based on a pur review of two pathologist’s reports. He did not examine 1 inch of Kugan’s body.
So, sauce for the M’sian goose should also be sauce for the Thai gander. But then some in M’sia hopelessly beileve in 1 M’sia, 3 systems!!
dpp
We are all of 1 race, the Human Race
donplaypuks,
It depends on who the victim is and who the beneficiaries are if not, in 1malaysia it’s all system go the other way around. Who are this people trying to KID….., and how are this guys in this position…., only God knows.!
Churning the milk pot to suit their own ends….., if you know what I’m getting at…! Cheers Bro.
IMHO, there is a vast different in giving an expert opinion in l court of law than expressing one’s opinion outside.
In court of law, whoever ( witness) testifies are subject to examination and cross examination by both side in helping a sitting judge to come to a right decision. mind me.
From the testimony by Dr. Pornthip, it is apparent that Teoh Beng Hock was assaulted brutally by his interrogators during a night of barbaric acts resulting in a torn anus, a cracked skull, beatings on the thighs and contusions on the neck.
But Dr. PR also testified that Teoh was alive but unconscious when he was dragged to the window and thrown out. The interrogators couldn’t let him go after inflicting such brutality on him so they decided to finish the job.
This makes it not a case of homicide but murder. Homicide is causing death without intention to kill but MACC officers have committed premeditated murder. The ‘M’ in MACC now stands for MURDER of the most horrific kind.
Dear oettinger,
Thanks for the clarification.
Did some finger work – results:
1. http://fz.blogsite.org/blog/2009/10/21/the-teoh-beng-hock-saga-part-1/
a. The entry was posted on October 21, 2009, 9:06 pm
b. No blogger profile or any background info available (common practice by UMNO shit-stirrers).
2. http://forum.mykmu.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=31089&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
a. This is an UMNO Blog (amongst many others in cyberspace).
b. Most of their members have RANKs insignia / icon !!!??
c. Fatimah_Zuhri – A Lance corporal insignia
Panelis Muda
Joined: Oct 01, 2009
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: What I think of the Teoh Beng Hock Saga
d. Comments made by their cybertroopers – less said the better ! Nothing constructive at all.
Well, folks. That’s how they siok sendiri amongst themselves.
BTW, their salaries are paid from some “secret” Funds from ……….
Dear Ghostbusters/Others
(1) I had a quick look at fatimah zuhri blog.
(2) I must say that we should not be to unduly concern with people like Fatimah Zuhri who had
(a) Manipulated the facts of the case
(b) Giving a distorted interpretation based on distorted facts
Certainly, her intention is clear i.e. to distort the mind of the readers of the online media. I believe she fail to appreciate that people who read the internet reads from multiple sources and the readers can compare the facts from many other source and they will appreciate that heinous act of Miss Fatimah.
she gives everyone a hard time in facebook. she spams on my wall. she speaks good english, she operates beginning from the afternoon till wee hours of the morning. she is one helluva bitch. minding my language, i know and of course, she is part of the several bloggers who blogs for some individuals from the ruling party, most probably associated with prominent ruling party bloggers. so, definitely she has so much of say in it.
there was once when she posted up something with regards to a police report being made by some wife of an ustaz from umno, i clarified with her the meaning of the word ‘merit’. she comes back and hits me so hard in the head and tells me that i am being monitored. so, from there on, i had to calm down. whatever post that she posts, i would not say a word at all, fearing that i would be getting myself into deeper trouble.
anyhow, there is more to her. i am checking on her background. i will provide her with more information.
cheers and have a good day.
Gestapo ala Bolehland!
Besides thanking Dr Rafick for his CSI findings, my thanks also go to Wudan for his transcripts which are so comprehensive.
Did anybody notice that the 2 local doctors went on MC the same time when they were due to testify, coincident?
1hassan
Yes, I know.. pure coincidence, is it?
MCs are easy to get lo more so if you are part of the system
Transcript of Dr Pornthip on the first injury i.e. the Anal Injury.
Pornthip : The first picture. Can you put the full screen? Down there! Yes. This is the anal injury
Malek : Ok. So, the first injury you said …..
Pornthip : Yes. The first is the anal injury
Malek : Ok.
Pornthip : From the picture No.25 from the bundle 57 and the picture No. 29 from the bundle 43. There is a ‘Penetrative Injury’ in the anal region.
Malek : Alright! Now just ………
Pornthip : The area ………
Malek : Hold on! So Tuan, (speaking to the Coroner) just for convenience. We have identified these are photos that are scanned from the photos that have been tendered to the Court. And the corresponding pictures have been identified for the convenience of the Court. And we thought it will be easier this way. Alright! You are saying that the arrows.. .. What do the arrows mean?
Pornthip : The blue arrow in the anal region means the direction of the object that can ‘put through’ the anal region according to the appearance of the wound.
Malek : Yes. Slowly! Let’s do it slowly, ok? Let’s start with this. You have described this anal injury as penetration injury?
Pornthip : Yes.
Malek : What could have cause that injury?
Pornthip : This injury should cause by the object that ‘put in’ the direction of the ‘blue arrow’ and the anal region.
Malek : Hold on! So, you are saying that an object inserted in the direction of the ‘blue arrow’……
Pornthip : ‘Blue arrow’. The long one. The long arrow. (Pornthip interrupt)
Malek : ….. would have cause the injury?
Pornthip : And in this kind of injury I have never seen in my case of fall from height.
Malek : So, you have never this type of injury in cases of fall from height? Is there anything else you wish to explain?
Pornthip : For me, from the ‘ picture of scene’ I found nothing. I mean the object that can penetrate and cause the injury like this.
Malek : You said you saw nothing that could have cause this ……
Pornthip : Yes.
Malek : The crime scene?
Malek : From the pictures of the crime scene there is no object that could have caused this sort of injury. And from that what do you?
Pornthip : I disagree.
Malek : Oh! Sorry! You said you did not see anything at the crime scene. What does that mean?
Pornthip : It mean that. For me, I should examine whether this is a penetrative injury or not? And if it is penetrative injury, there might be some missing piece of object.
Malek : Alright! So what you are saying, if I understand your observation is that this injury is not consistent with a fall?
Pornthip : Yes.
Malek : Is there anything else you wish to explain on that photograph?
Pornthip : Yes. The second part are about the abrasion at the Gluteal region. (Pornthip moves from witness seat and walk towards the screen. Pointing to the picture) There are more one line. This is one line, maybe two or three. You see the arrow?
Malek : Ok! Hold on! You are saying in relation to the abrasion there is more than one line and you have indicated the abrasion in the Gluteal region as well as on the back, upper thigh of the right thigh. Is that correct? Is that the right thigh?
Pornthip : Yes. That is the right thigh.
Malek : High on the upper position right? Alright!
Pornthip : This look like a wound from beating by a piece of wood.
Malek : This look like a wound cause by beating ……………..
Pornthip : Beating with a piece of wood.
Malek : ………………..piece of wood?
Pornthip : Yes.
Malek : Alright!
Pornthip : And the direction of the force are different from the direction of the penetrative injury.
Malek : So the direction of the force on the thigh is different from the direction of the force of the anal injury.
Pornthip : And the next picture. For me, we have to look …….
Malek : Hold on! Is different from the direction…. Can you go back to the previous picture? The direction of the force on the thigh is different from the direction of the force of the penetrative injury in the anal region. Correct?
Pornthip : Yes.
Malek : And you wanted to move to the next photograph?
Pornthip : Yes.
Malek : Next line
Pornthip : And this kind of injury is the pattern of the TORTURE. For the autopsy, we should open along this. (pointing to the picture. The picture shows the reverse side of a left thigh with a long incision)
Malek : What is this? Let’s start with this.
Pornthip : This is from my textbook and from my case,
Malek : This is textbook photograph….
Pornthip : Yes. From textbook and from my case
Malek : So we will make this available to the Court and to all counsels. Can you now explain what you are trying to say?
Pornthip : In the case of the death in custody, we try to find the cause of injury. We need to open along the posterior aspect.
Malek : In order to determine torture , we need to…. For those sort of injury that you have identified on the thigh. Is that the thigh region?
Pornthip : Yes.
Malek : You need to do?
Pornthip : Open the skin.
Malek : Open the skin. To do what?
Pornthip : To find out whether there is haemorrhage under neath that areas or not?
Malek : And if you find there is haemorrhage? What is that indicate?
Pornthip : That it is not compatible with a fall from height with a single impact on the ground.
Malek : So not compatible with fall from height with a single impact on the ground.
Coroner : “If there is a HAEMORRHage”. (Speaking out loud the sentence as he write)
Malek : From that would the injury show on the surface of the skin?
Pornthip : No. Sometimes show sometime No.
Malek : Sometimes Yes sometime No. So to determine whether, in fact, there was inflicting of force, you would have to open up the injury.
Pornthip : Yes. (On) Both thighs.
Malek : From your observation of the Autopsy Report. In the report that you have read. Was that done in this case?
Pornthip : No
Malek : Looking at…… Can I have the previous slide? Looking at the injury there. Yeah! That’s the one. Looking at the injury there, is it possible if this was cause by BEATING?
Pornthip : Yes.
Malek : Alright! Can we move on? Are you finish with this?
Pornthip : Yes, Finish with this.
Dear Wudan,
So privilege… to have you in this Forum…., dengan izin DR. Rafick.., keep it coming. Bro.
balasi,
is dr amrit sekhon around and okey?. he is not around in this forum for few days already.
pelangisenja,
Don’t worry….., we had a nice time in Penang. It was just fantastic….” ALIRAN IS MADE OF THAT STUFF “
I don’t like to brag. I happen to have such a time when ALIRAN was crawling.
HELLOooooooo,,,
ALIRAN IS ON “BHANGRA DANCE BEAT” NOW. TIME TO BE ROCKING.
Dr. Amrit,
Thanks Bro…., it was nice …..don’t believe him…, but ALI is here to stay.
pelangisenja,
I assume you would have been five years old…., masih meleleh…., air liur kot. Hidup juga bangsat macam awak…. Luv to see you in person oneday….you know what I mean.
wudan
Once again, thank you for the effort to scribe the inquiries.
It’s always much easier to read your scribe than trying to listen to those clips. 8)
Thanks wudan for your effort.
shahmh has pointed out on the need for comments, especially in this particular transcript.
As layman I find some telling tales from the dialogue that ensued between the two experts Dr Pornthip and Malek.
Malek was somewhat ignorant on the forensic procedure to ascertain torture, re: Pornthip’s assertion that to do that one would have to cut up the layer under the skin of abrasion to determine whether hemorrhage has occurred. It’s as if Malaysia is 5 years behind the rest of the world on the forensic procedure to determine torture.
Or is it the case that Malek was only play-acting his so-called plain dumbness?
Why is he repeating Dr Pornthip words? I find that unprofessional and very irritating if I am her.
Rastaman,
I agree with you that Malik….was ignorant…., but it does not correct the fact that our Forensic Pathologist are any better…., because in lay men’s term…. they are Third class Forensic pathologist……, they should just call themselves M.O.s capable only to do postmortem’s on man or ladies dying in road accidents .
They work like the saying goes ” melepas batuk atas tangga sahaja “…., ( stand to be corrected here )
rastaman,
Malek team must have had their ”discussion” earlier.It is logical.
on why Malek as well as others keep repeating what dr.porntip said is because he wanted the court clerk or interpreter or whoever that do the writing (for court record like hansard),so it must be the exact word and sentence which she uttered during giving her expert opinion.
It goes to everyone whether lawyer,dpp,coroner or witness who testifies in this proceeding.whatever the question and answer are recorded in writting.
this recording (put in writting) is most important for all parties that were involved in the proceeding.
balasi,
The saying you’ve used is correct for someone who is not interested in uncovering the truth.
pelangisenja,
Correct, they must have a prior discussion on how to deal with Pornthip.
I must add he was doing it too often for comfort, and the idea was to ridicule Pornthip wherever possible.
But if we read carefully in between the lines, the joke was on him and he was not even aware of it!
rastaman / pelangisenja,
You two jokers don’ even know how PP’s / Lawyer’s operate……, if I were to respond…., I will look bigger then the idiot both of you are……!
If both of you have someone practising law of sorts please seek their advice ….., if not go watch more law related … Drama series.
pi mai pi mai tang tu….!
someone posted this on my site!
http://fz.blogsite.org/blog/2009/10/21/the-teoh-beng-hock-saga-part-1/
Encik oettinger, please clarify :
THE site… fz.blogsite.org/blog …. is YOUR blog ?
BTW, how’s your back pain ? What did your orthopaedic surgeon said?
Do update us with more stories at the said blog…..
Have a nice day !
HELLO PEOPLE!!!!
nope. i got this from facebook. and she is an umno cybertrooper. her name is fatimah zuhri. TAKE NOTE!
FATIMAH ZUHRI!
i am sharing whatever was given to me.
back was ok. got back from overseas. how is everybody?
oettinger,
You never got back to me after your back injury….., is it real man….., I hope so…, by the way answer ghostbuster
from your heart.
hello balasi. just got back from ‘berubat’ with a dukun. sorry for posting this post so early in the morning. i am doing ok. back is doing extremely ok.
was charmed by several of my malay business partners. fell ill after that. someone rescued me and saved my life. being transported overseas. nope. i am with you guys. there is nothing to worry for i still stand tall in my principles in life. i come from a left-winger based family which is full of history. so, i hope that explains it all.
dr raffick, sorry for the missing in action. yes, i am doing well. i would not repeat myself. i have a site to post about khunying dr porntip rojanasunand and its from you tube.
enjoy watching.
thank you all for being with me. best regards again and good morning!
oettinger,
Just read your reply…., glad you are back…., you have my email don’t you….drop me a line…, wan’t to share something with you. Just came back from ALIRAN ‘s DINNER it was just GREAT….., only Dr. Amrit…., tagged along….., the presences of others would have made a difference. Take care Bro.
It’s a moderated blog.
Any comments that goes against the article were removed and comes only blog’s owner comment.
Well, some people just love to hear music *)
nxforget,
you always know when to barge in….., was missing oettinger…., he was gone for a while ..just wanted his response.
ghostbuster,
i left you out. sorry. my mistake. overlooked. i previously only posted and replied comments of those from dr raffick and also balasi.
forgive me for my ignorance. right now, i have a new friend.
let’s share our knowledge from and beyond.
cheers
the meaning of the title KHUNYING
Khun Ying is a conferred non-inheritable lifetime title for a married non-royal woman ranking lower than a conferred title of “Than Phuying” or a birth non-royal title of “Mom Rajawong”, but ranking higher than a birth non-royal title of “Mom Luang”. Such title of “Khun Ying” is sometimes roughly translated as Dame or Lady. An unmarried woman with a conferred title is styled Khun.
Dr PR also comment about injury over the right thigh. Any comment from u dr Rafiq.?
I am no doctor. But it just seem that malaysian doctor (those that did the post-mortem on the late TBH, my respect to TBH) are not qualified. Cincai punya. They got paid by taxpayers money ma.. Mana graduated i don’t know.
Dear tsunami unleashed
(1) I am not sure whether it is “chincai” or “closing one eye”
Dr. Rafick.
I stand to be corrected here…., but is it true that most of the dissection in the mortuary is done by attendants …., and these so call Forensic pathologist dont even dearth their hands.
They come in to work spot clean…., they go back the same way….., only dirtiying their hands and souls for signing PM reports.
Roh mendiang Teoh Beng Hock sedang merayau-rayau di semua kawasan di mana beliau telah pernah di seksa. Kau orang MACC siap-siap aje lah. Waktu memandu kereta, waktu tutup lampu setiap malam, waktu jalan-jalan di mana kawasan gelap – siap aje lah Teoh ada di sebelah kau orang. Oh ya Teoh juga sedang ikut jejak langkah Khir Toyol dan kesemua keluarga Khinzir Toyo
Transcript of Dr Pornthip on the third and final injury i.e. fracture of the skull.
Pornthip : For the other injury I mean the last one. It is a fracture of the skull. From the opinion by the doctors.
Malek : Ok. From the opinion by the pathologists that is Dr Khairul and Dr Prashant.
Pornthip : Aha! They say that this fracture might caused by ‘Transfer Force’.
Malek : Ok. They say this fracture might be caused by ‘Transfer Force’.
Pornthip : ‘Transfer Force’ from the feet.
Malek : From the feet …..
Pornthip : …..During jump from the feet.
Malek : During landing on the feet?
Pornthip : During landing on the ground . But I found CONTUSION over the fracture line.
Malek : So you found a contusion ……
Pornthip : …… On the fracture line.
Malek : Oh! The fracture line.
Pornthip : So the fracture line caused by Blunt Force Injury to the skull.
Malek : Ok. So, in your view that fracture could be cause by blunt force……
Pornthip : … blunt force injury.
Malek : ….. blunt force injury. (repeat after Pornthip)
Pornthip : ….. directly on the skull
Malek : Alright!
Pornthip : …And for the ‘Transfer Force’ a fall from height, jumping on the feet and from the textbook there will be just only ‘Ring Fracture’.
Malek : When there is a transfer force from landing on the feet there should be …..?
Pornthip : A typical fracture that we can confirm it is a fall from height on the feet.
Malek : When you land on your feet and there is a ‘Transfer Force’, a typical fracture is…?
Pornthip : Should be ‘Ring Fracture’.
Malek : The ‘Ring Fracture’? Alright! Hold on! Ring Fracture
Pornthip : ….. at the base of the skull.
Malek : at the base of the skull
Pornthip : …. Around the spinal column.
Malek : ….around the spinal column. So that will be around here. (Malek pointing both his index fingers towards the base of his neck).
Pornthip : No. Up here.(pointing at her forehead) Not a linear fracture and not a cervical spine fracture.
Malek : In this case, there was a C4 fracture, cervical spine. So you are saying that is not compatible with transfer force.
Malek : In this case, did you note from the material whether there was a ‘Ring Fracture’?
Pornthip : No
Malek : There was no ‘Ring Fracture’.
Pornthip : No information from the doctor’s report.
Malek : So the report does not note any ‘Ring Fracture’. Did you see the x-ray this morning? Of the … sorry. You saw the x-ray this morning.
Pornthip : Yes.
Malek : In those x-ray, did you notice any ‘Ring Fracture’?
Pornthip : We cannot look in this view. We need a lateral view or the other view.
Malek : So those x-ray do not indicate a ‘Ring Fracture’. Is that correct?
Pornthip : Yes.
Malek : Let me put it this way. Let’s be clear. It is not possible to see whether there was a ‘Ring Fracture’ from those x-ray?
Pornthip : No. Not possible.
Malek : So, just to summarize. Insofar, as the linear fracture is concern, is it your opinion that, that was caused by a blunt force trauma?
Pornthip : Yes.
Dear Wanda,
How much time did you spend on this effort of yours…, splendid..bro, never knew….alot out there can scarifice so much in effort.
Dr. Rafick will be please of this.
Dear wudan,
Many thanks for the transcript. So much easier to digest compared to watching the video from AG link.
(Had a tough time comprehending …too much silence/break in the lengthy *.wmv recordings).
Despite the medical terms/meaning which is not easy for non-medical rakyat to understand, what is clear is Dr.Porntip testimonies had cast doubts on the previous pathologist findings / opinions presented to the court.
Keep up the good work..way to go, man !!
Blessed you.
Thank you both.
Dear Wudan,
Welcome abroad.., luv to have you here with Dr. Raficks approval….!
Hello Dr,
Regarding the no injury on the hands.
The reaction of a person falling down can go a number of ways. I would like to share my recent personal experience.
I visited a shopping mall recently and unfortunately misjudged a dropping of about 40 cm height. I lost my footing and fell. Instinctively my hands were stretched to cushion my fall. I landed on my knees. At impact, I slumped and landed on my chest (and did a comical belly flop).
What is relevant to TBH’s case is that I was too disoriented and shocked after landing on my knees that my hands were not there to cushion the second stage of my fall.
TBH did land on his legs so it is possible the landing caused him to be disoriented not to put up his hands.
Hope the input put new depth to the discussion. Thanks.
Mr. Rocko,
40 cm….., is just 16 inches…., how to tabulate…., go and fall 160 ft then share it wih us, then Dr. Rafick can study your case.
If not how to give output….for futher discussion.!
Hi Balasi.
Appreciate my train of thoughts.
The relevance that I am pointing to is not the height of the fall but the reaction upon first impact.
I landed on my knees. Upon first impact, I was disoriented that my hands didn’t cushion my second impact when I slumped to the ground chest first.
From this experience, I assume it could have happened to TBH as well. He landed on his legs, became disoriented (due to pain and sheer shock) and fail to use his hands to protect himself from the second impact when he fell to his side.
He fell from a further height so the effect of first impact is more severe. The pain and shock turns off all instinctive reactions.
Hope it clarifies.
“go and fall 160 ft then share it wih us, then Dr. Rafick can study your case.”
Dr Raffick also used much less dangerous personal experience to support his assumptions. As written here…
“I believe many people who had slipped would have experience injuries on the hand or wrist as a result of the body reflex where the person hand would automatically be outstretched”
“From this experience, I assume it could have happened to TBH as well. He landed on his legs, became disoriented (due to pain and sheer shock) and fail to use his hands to protect himself from the second impact when he fell to his side.”
To add to this… the enormous pain felt from landing on his leg could decrease TBH’s consciousness hence not having the awareness to cushion the second impact with his hands.
Read more about pain affecting consciousness here..
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Neuroscience-2933/pain-decrease-consciousness.htm
Mr. Rocko,
I got the point……, I might have been a bit too harsh…, sorry BRO….., thanks for the write up, it was more of a essay if you compile it.
Mr. Rocko,
Are you from Penang ?
Mr. Rocko,
After going through your comments once again…I don’t fully agree with you….., my take is that he was unconscious prior to his fall.
there is a lot of difference falling from 40cm and from 14th floor when once is conscious and also when once falls suddenly and one falls knowingly(suicide) and when one is pushed while conscious(murder). and the reaction from the fall will also be different of the person falling from 14th floor is still alive. but we all agree teoh was not conscious when the fall happened.
Balasi, your first reaction to rocko’s post was the correct one. His blow by blow account was sheer nonsense in its detail and attempt at obfuscation. His nonsensical positing that the pain is so great that he could not response only accounted for the last few hundredths of a milliseconds.
If TeohBH was conscious his fall of about 9 storeys would probably had took him about 10 seconds. In that short time – depending on his state of mind – he would most likely be trying to grasp at straw. Very few people could die in peace from a traumatic fearful fall.
Dr.PR had many years of experiences and her conclusion was spot on.
Dear Mr Rocko
Thank you for sharing your experience and views. What you have illustrated is yours ONE experience.
What we must look at is the typical reaction of a conscious person reaction when falling down. In statistical analysis, the reaction of a person falling down can be described as a “bell curve”.
In a typical bell curve distribution,99% of common distribution lies in the center of the curve and the balance 1% is distributed between the two tail end of the curve.
Your experience probably is located at one end of the curve. It would easier if I could draw it for you to explain but i cant draw anything in this comment box.
Trust that this clarifies.
Doc,
Would that be possible if you could put all your articless of “My CSI …” to 1 folder/header next to the Home or Classic so that is easier for readers to read all your CSI as there are lots of people out there might missed your previous aricles. And I’m sure there are more articles to come on CSI…. Thanks.
Thank you. Good suggestion. Will try to do it today…
MOTHER OF ALL LIES
NOTHING IN THIS COUNTRY CAN SURPRISE ME ANY MORE
CASE CLOSED
TBH WILL TELL HIS SIDE OF THE STORY ONE FINE DAY
FOR THOSE WHO ARE GUILTY & CONSPIRING PARTIES
GOOD LUCK
PRAY YOU LIVE FOR EVER AND DON’T DIE !
GATES OF HELL WAITING
CSI,
There is a TEMPLE in Malaysia that communicates with the departed soul….., I think Dr. Porntip had already done that.
We should also organize one.
Lingam case – the royal commission findings are brushed aside – case closed.
I’m not surprised if MACC is just cleared over TBH’s death – just another case where truth and justice is not at all a priority for the govt, police, MACC, (in)Justice Department, AG, etc.
BUT if the alleged perpetrator is a Pakatan Rakyat person, then be it RM2400 or a bite on the ear, let’s prosecute to the fullest of our ability – this is the BN govt we have. The only way is to vote out BN.
God help us all!
Dr. Rafick,
Doc, after reading and not digesting what Dr. PR, testified…, and also connecting what you wrote in your forum….., forgive me if I conclude that our path’s…are where they are, not for what they are for… it’s just a privillage what is thrown to them like cakes, I mean the POST.
For the Indian Path…, please forgive him, for I see no future for him other then so call Malaysia for what he stood for….sometimes…survival outweighs our basic principals of moral in life.
PS. not digesting…..due to lack off info…., will comment later…..let The Bigger Guys Comment for now.
Dr. Rafick,
Cannot digest the terms she uses…., more over Tan was always asking like correct, correct, correct…, in general, general….general.
Should appoint him General in AG office.
Dear Dr,
You sure got sharp eyes and observations! Syabas!
Ref. AG website, wonder why the staff assigned for the transcripts are not doing their work..
The audio recording is really not up to standard. Who are the people, technicians, responsible for the whole audio/video setup? Don’t they ever playback and rectify any faults?
Total downloads up to 14 Aug 2009 came to a whooping 13.5 Gigabyte !!
Just so to elaborate how such system deflects on the Malaysian abilities(or tidak apa attitude?)…surely the auth. concerned realised that it’s a borderless world, and many international visitors accessed and downloads what’s in the public domain ??
Choose not to know ? just like the pathologists mentioned?
Very soon, the outside world will have a poor perception of Malaysia!
dr raffick,
I think Dr PR’s conclusion that the injury on TBH’s skull was caused by blunt trauma and not from impact due to the fall is logical. The crack as pointed out by Dr. PR is linear while impact from a fall would be circular. I’m sure we have all experienced impact damage on a glass object which did not break from falling onto the floor but show cracks radiating outwards from the impact point.
I believe the good doctor is experienced enough to distinguish injury from blunt object and from a fall. Hence there are 3 bodily injuries before the fall – skull, anus and neck which shows that TBH was physically abused before he died in the most horrific manner.
Ken
While I am aware of the nature of injury and the outcome of the impact, I am not privy to the mechanism of the fall. The blowout fracture which is describe by Dr PR can only happen if the head hit the floor first.
In the case of TBH, he had landed on his leg and on his side of the body and the head was probably the last thing that touch the ground. Hence the impact and momentum of the head against the wall is smaller compared to when the leg touches the ground. There for the small force may give an impression of a blunt trauma. That is why I said we can split hair in finding out the mechanic of the head injury.
Again, i am basing on limited information that i collect from the public domain. Dr PR had the upper hand as she were given ALL the documents.
Trust this clarifies
Dr.Rafick,
I think you had misunderstood Dr.PR’s point. The fracture in the skull was NOT DUE TO TRANSFER FORCE from the leg. All of us had agreed that he landed feet first. The impact on the hip would have transferred the force up the spinal column and onto the skull. From her experiences such transfer force fracture is circular while blunt force fractures are linear. She further supported her statement from the very onset that she found contusion around the fracture.
Circular structures are very strong and can resist external force very well. When there is an external force acting on it the force compresses the skull bone and the force is then distributed mostly along the plates edges. Many spherical structures(dome shape) could resist gale size winds better than squarish and flat structures.
If the force came from inside the skull then only muscles and tissues are holding the bones together and the “blowout” will be circular in nature.
If you contented that the fracture was due to the head hitting the floor then we could, with 99% certainty ruled it out as both our own pathologists had ruled that out and contended that the fracture came from transfer force. Dr.PR corrected the erroneous conclusions from our own pathologist and said that transfer force fracture is circular and from her own examination of the photographs there were contusion around the fracture – consistent with a blow to the head.
Dr. Rafick, Ken & Ghostbuster,
Sometimes we contradict ourselves…, but end of the day ” TRUTH PREVAILS. ” God help us all.
Yes Balasi and before truth oould prevail there is a lot of silliness. Maya and delusions are pervasive.
I am comforted that you are a god fearing person and others who chose to manipulate others, including god fearing person, may not be so.
Keep your delusions under a short-leash, balasi.
Morning Dew,
Can you please be more precise …, let’s not go in circles. ( Delusion & maya= Pervasive )…..but God fearing but still manipulative…..should keep delusions under a short leash……, morning dew… have you given up on our Malaysian race….?
P.S. Would like to correspond with you if you want to.,
Morning Dew,
You didn’t reply me….., but when I wrote about contradicting ourselves…., I was not refering to you.
I hope you understand…., the context of my statement was for previous comments.
I, too, don’t believe that our government pathologists, Dr Khairul and Dr Prashant, are slipshod in their work.
More likely, they are made to toe a certain line which causes them to deliberately leave out certain points so as to support the suicide theory.
I remember both Dr Khairul and Dr Prashant not ruling out the possibility that some of TBH’s wounds may be due to injuries inflicted during the course of interrogation.
But the fact that they TOOK THE TROUBLE to make us believe that it is most proabbly suicide(including Dr Prashant’s 9 reasons) and not otherwise is really food for thought!
kalo aku jadi Malaysian patologist yg tak leh nampak sume ni, aku malu gile…sampai nak kene import Thais patologist utk tunjuk how to do proper post mortem on dead body…chis..
or did we send interns to do the job….?
dia orang ini tak tahu malu dan tak takut kat tuhan pun. apa nak jadi malaysia ni, haprak?
Khunying Dr.Pornthip has made comments where the Malaysian or Malaysian based docs have been silent. is this elegant silent or just not saying to protect themselves from the powers to be? and if they say something professional wrong, they could be hauled up by MMC, correct?
we just have to see what comes out next. Lingam got away, so do not be surprised that MACC will walk away from this even of the evidence is right in our faces.
Dear Dr Raffick,
I had been reading over all your CSI articles since las nite and I am grateful that it gives me a very comprehensive over the developments of the case, as months had passed and whatever facts that had been laid out, is too vague and scattered for me to remember and to recollect anymore.
I am a forensic sci major myself so after some digging, I notice that three pieces of evidence is the most vital in understanding the circumstances of the case:
1. The window lock/ latch: According to the past reports, it has been found on the pants of TBH ( if nt mistaken) and the chemist Mr Saiful testified that the broken piece is consistent with piece found on the windows of the building as well. However, he could not CONFIRM that the broken piece was actually from the 14th floor. Come on, how hard is it to check this? it’s not that we have broken window latches everyday, not to say that its only the windows facing the crime scene that should be checked. I m wondering why everybody overlook this evidence. If we could establish where does the window latch come from, and by looking at its position and the tear on TBH pants, it’s quite easy to establish his posture while falling out of the window, then we could know whether it’s a suicide or murder, because the directionality of the tear on TBH pants is quite inconsistent with jump. BTW, the directionality of the pants tear was overlooked by the authorities as well, somehow.
2. The anal injuries. If we check back at the previous testimonies by the MALAYSIAN pathologist, they said that the injury could be consistent with a fall whereby the ruptured sacrum (if nt mistaken) could have perforated the anus. several arguments were raised that if the victim has been tortured by the perforation of the anus, 1. they would have found blood on the interrogation offices ( my point: blood could have been clean, and if not for certain chemicals, they wld not have been visible , did they do it, i dunno). 2. Then they would be a puncture tear on TBH pants and not the tear pattern we observed ( my points: first, he could have been told to take off his pants, second, the tear pattern on the pants after the fall could have destroyed the puncture tear, even if it exist. But remember, if the pants have been puncture, it is more likely for it to be tear apart due to the window lock, or as well as t he impact). 3. The victim is sustained such an injury, he would have been too painful to walk to the window ( my point: who says he’s walking, he cld be carried wat)
it seems to me the doctors of MAlaysia is not putting up a professional evaluation on the anal injury. If it indeed was a perforation act on the anal orifice instead of an injury due to a fractured bone, we could have seen a tear all along the anal canal, if examined post mortem. But if it’s a broken bone, i tink the perforation might be sideways. Not to mention that we could have seen tears and injuries at the orifice site. I am nt a doctor myself, but it dun see the difficulty to distinguish these two types of injury. If indeed the injury is caused by the insertion of a weapon, trace materials from the weapon could be found on the injury site. None of these was analysed.
3. The left shoe. If Teoh Beng Hock has landed as said, right leg first, how does the left shoe ended up so far away from the corpse? Even such an impact on the right leg is not able to dislodge the shoes, how come it manage to do so on the left leg? There is a big possibility that the shoe was thrown out of the window after TBH fell from it. Is dere any fingerprint or DNA swab done on the left shoe? Not that I had read of.
tHis case shows how poor the investigation of a case had been conducted by the police. It seems like the chemist, pathologist and the police had all conducted their own investigation and whenever a doubt is raised, they threw it at each other saying that it’s not their responsibility to investigate. We shld have reinvent our criminal justice system so that a truly scientific investigation shld be done with the collaboration of the three bodies. But i m nt saying that the independence of the ME and the chemist should be compromised. it’s just that the police shld hv launch their investigation based on the scientific facts, if not wat’s the value of the evidence if it does not produce any investigative leads?
I welcome anyone to verify or add any facts to my argument as due to time constraints, I haven’t been able to read through the official witness statements from the AG chambers to support my argument. thx
Dr Pornthip form her opinion based on the following reports and documents made available to her;
1) Autopsy Report (I 42)
2) All photos in I 43 (a thick bundle of photographs)
3) All photos in I 55 (scanned photos from the original)
4) All photos in I 57 (also a thick bundle of photographs)
5) Crime scene photos (I 1)
6) X-Ray of the deceased {I73 (a) – (j}
7) Evidence of Dr Khairul Azman (SI10)
8) Evidence of Dr Prashant Samberkar (SI15)
wudan
Please advice your source of information. Thank you
As testifed by Malek Imtiaz to Coroner. From Video 1 of the AG Chamber’s website
I beg your pardon Doc. It should be Video 2. Time frame from 10:30:31 to 10:31:50
In the meantime, the general feeling is that the people believe that that there is an interdepartmental collaboration to COVER UP rather than to solve the crime.
It’s logical and believable!
Cool … getting to more to the facts. 8)
nxforget,
I think you and me should just watch this from the sidelines….., unless we have some half past six commentators comment that we can barge into.
Polite. Very polite indeed.