1. Over the last few days, the lawyers grilled the doctors during the inquest. The two doctors despite having contradicted themselves stand by their view that TBH actually jumped out of the 14th floor. For the first time today, I asked ordinary people who read papers at the stall where I had my breakfast regularly. Out of the many people that I talked to (4 Malays, 3 Chinese and 1 Indian), no one think it is suicide. The Malay taxi driver that spoke to me today also think that it is impossible. Then why are these two doctors claiming that TBH had committed suicide?
2. Some people who read my blog commented negatively about the two doctors and raised the possibility that they have not acted professionally in their course of work. I do not wish to argue their decisions and the basis of their decisions. I think it is between them and Allah (or in the case of Dr Prashant, Lord Muruga or Lord Ganesh)
3. I would like to explain their reasoning on why they came to such a conclusion. Their argument is strongly based on the fact that there was no evidence of struggle or defensive injuries. Their decisions was also supported by what was told to them by the police i.e. that there was no evidence to support a struggle in the office.
4. This argument can easily be debunked. Firstly lack of evidence to suggest a struggle or any defensive injury alone is not enough to come to the conclusion that TBH had committed suicide. There are many instances that a man would not have those signs of injuries or struggle. Among others, this would include that he was mentally intimidated, underfed, tired, exhausted physically and mentally, demoralized, psychologically pressured or he was accidentally injured while being interrogated. There is a long list that contributes to it but I think, what I have put here is sufficient for now.
5. It is sad that the doctors had not taken into consideration of these factors as well as the lawyers did not explore it into great detail during their questioning sessions. From the inquest there is more evidence to suggest that he did not die from suicide. Allow me to explain why I said so.
6. If everyone remembers, during Dato Shukri of MACC press conference that was held immediately after the body was found, he said that Teoh was released at 0345 am on the 16th July 2009. It does not make sense for someone to hang around such an office after a long interrogation period since 500pm the day before. MACC office is not exactly The Shangri-la .He would have wanted to leave.
7. He was about to register his marriage. His fiancé had an unborn child. It was reported that he showed no abnormal behavior in the last few days and hours prior to being questioned by MACC. In other words, he was his normal self. There was no pressure for him to commit suicide. In other words there is no motif.
8. The police investigations did not find any prints on the window and window frames. With his height and the height of the window he would definitely hold on to the window or the frames if he had climbed out. There would be prints, event it is a partial prints. The police could analyze these prints and says that if the “partial prints” had any resemblance to TBH prints. As reported, the police did find 8 partial prints but they could not confirm who the owners of these finger prints are. This includes TBH himself.
9. To the contrary to what the doctors are saying, there is an evidence of struggle or he was being manhandled. There might not be any evidence of defensive injury but there is a sign that he was manhandled. The watch buckled marked on his left wrist is a major sign that he was grabbed strongly at this point. This mark could only happen if he was struggling and the person actually holds him tightly. How come the pathologist did not comment on this?
10. The presence of two unknown DNA on TBH body is another point that the doctors had overlooked? This is a significant point. Under the circumstances, if the police have to screen all the MACC staff in Malaysia, there is a justification to do so.
11. The fact remains that he was last seen alive in MACC office. No one can deny that. I don’t know what the politicians are trying to make out of this but personally I feel if the truth do not come out, it would be bad news for BN. It is the government responsibility and in their best interest to make sure the truth surfaced as soon as possible. It is in everyone best interest that the real truth must prevail. Any further delay will lead to greater political consequences as well as erosion of public confidence towards MACC in the long run.
i wonder whether his post mortem on kugan is valid till now. after what he has actually told the court, i think that he is a little far off too much.
Dr Rafick…
now we have a letter claimed to be from
MACC officers alleging very senior officer in MACC was involved in TBH questioning just before his death… I hope the police now will go for thorough investigations and professional in doing their duties. This letter might give another light to this mysterious death.
I am not surprised as there are good and honest MACC officers who has had enough
I am given to understand (privileged info) this doctor from India is a pretty competent fellow. But then again with his report on the Kugan case squarely putting the blame on the police -no matter what the half twit merican chap says – why would the police use him in the TBH case? For one this gives him a lotta of credibility and if he can be coerced into suggesting suicide then half the Macc and police work i.e. the cover-up is done. And for the federal govt. whose dirty hand is there for all to see in this murder, this case is bigger than the kugan case; hence the end game will be that someone is eventually hauled up for the kugan killing vindicating the good doctor while nobody will be hauled up for the TBH killing. And you and I, who shall sing the praises of his kugan autopsy findings will find it hard to now knock his credibility on the TBH case. And as pointed out by some of the comments, the game the govt. police and macc is playing is all too obvious by the doctor suggesting suicide when at best he can from his findings state that TBH dropped to his death.
suspicion..conceive…suspicion born…
several days ago , i said TBH WAS MURDERED , NOW LOOK AT THE LETTER , IT MAY BE PROVEN NOW , TBH WAS DEAD AND HIS BODY WAS THROWN OUT THROUGH THE WINDOW.
Why not subject those people, who enter the building before TBH death and exited the next morning after TBH death, to a lie detector test carried out by an independant expert to save time. This test can narrow down the suspect(s).
Dr Rafick said: The BN government will earned the people support and respect if they showed equal or greater enthusiasm to get to the bottom of the case.
That’s pretty funny! The BN government is at the “bottom of the case.” Can you imagine Najib, Khir and Muhyiddin going on TV and begging the rakyat’s forgiveness for their evil deeds – starting from defence ministry shenanigans with hardware purchases, the abduction and murder of Altantuya, the smuggling of Balasubramaniam out of the country, and now the untimely death in MACC custody of Teoh Beng Hock?
Once they confess, there will be no more BN government left to regain the rakyat’s “support and respect.” No wonder this country is in such a sorry mess, if even the wise Doctor Rafick can believe the BN is redeemable!
Dear “God?”
Sometimes you need to read more then once to get the hidden messages in my writing.
I am only as wise as the next guy sitting next to meet at the “kedai kopi”
Dear Doc,
Was his wallet and car keys with him, when he so call fell. I missed this, can u enlighten me
No. all his personal effects was with MACC. It was given to the police 2 days later. They claims they had kept it because they need it as part of their investigations.
Doc,
Then u were right all the way in ur CSI, He was just not released and was still in MACC Custtody…….., Doc shake that guy who insisted TBH was realeased at 3.45am on the 16 of July.
Let’s recall what the security guard testified.
A “high ranking” MACC officer saw Teoh (dead? alive?) on the couch at 6.10am. The officer left MACC building within minutes after that. The guard at the Plaza Masalam also mentioned that its unusual for the officer to be in the office so late.
Now I just read the ‘mysterious letter’. Point 2 (v) reads as follows;
Kami mengesyaki berdasarkan maklumat yang diperolehi bahawa TP tidak mengetuk kad perakam waktunya (punch card) semasa beliau hendak balik dari pejabat pada 16hb Julai 2009, jam 6.10 pagi.
Ini penting kerana ia boleh membuktikan bahawa TP adalah orang yang terakhir melihat Teoh. Persoalannya, kenapa beliau tidak mengetuk kad perakamnya sedangkan beliau ialah seorang yang selalu mengetuk kad nya. Untuk rekod, beliau adalah seorang yang teliti dengan kad perakamnya.
Last Man To See Teoh Left Building at 6.10am, court told
The Malaysian Insider report here : http://www2.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/34270-last-man-to-see-teoh-left-building-at-610am-court-told
Dear Dr, I would like to comment on some of your fellow readers’ comment in this post and the previous ones.
——————-
Lets get something straight. The pathologists have been unjustly wronged by some of you.
DrR-Allow me to put forward some points for your own thoughts.
A quick Google search shows that a pathologist is “an expert in pathology; a specialist who examines samples of body tissues for forensic purpose”. They are not the leading I/O who pieces the whole puzzle together.
Dr R- I agree with you on this point. Then it is more reason for them NOT TO comment on the possibility of suicide
At the inquest, they were merely answering questions directed to them based on the information that they have from the findings of their task.
Dr R– Agree and I believe the best answer they can give, among others: (a) As a doctor, I can only confirm that the injury sustained is consistent with fall from height (b) I dont know whether the fall is due to suicide or otherwise as I dont have all the necessary information (c) That he question is best answered by the I/O who are actually have access to all the information
The pathologists had handled 1000s of cases in their job. From their experience, they see common patterns in death cases. And what they see in TBH’s case fit the pattern of suicide as there is no sign of struggle to point to homicide or drugs/alcohol to point to accidental death.
That is their train of thought.
Dr R- Agree that would be their train of thought but they should not have over extended their imagination and ability beyond their own training capability. They should exercise caution in making statement to ensure that their own professional ability will not be questioned.
For some people to jump the gun and accuse them of playing foul is disgustingly ignorant. They don’t handle fingerprint, they don’t interview family members and etc not because they are covering up but it is because it is not their job description.
Dr R- That I have to agree with you, partly
Get your head out of the sand, this is not CSI Miami where the pathologists are the same people that interrogate suspects and then chase down the baddies after the climatic gunfight.
Dr R- CSI Miami is a movie where everything is solved in 45 mins! This is real life
Mr Rocko
I suggest you read all the other CSI postings as well as each and every comment to have a better view of why some readers think that the doctors are not doing a ‘good’ job.
Dear Rocko,
Don’t be a smart ass, we can be ignorant and also arrogant..but what we want from both these learned pathologist is to give us a E.T.D. from their arrival at C.S. (7.45pm), then let us all work backwards to track TBH movements prior to his death. Is this so much to ask…….., pi pikir lah.
Dear Rocko,
Just because they have handle more then a thousand cases, u expect them to talk from their conscience ……..not necessary they sometimes talk for their convenience.
Rocko,
Did you watch the video at the AGC website? Perhaps not, judging from your posting here.
Dr Prasant said he is a forensic pathologist but he has NO academic qualifications in forensics but only practical experience.
But then, no matter how highly qualified one is, he can be bought or threatened to distort his finding to satisfy certain interests.
Prasant had surely compromised his integrity making judgements without evidence but mere conjectures.
How can he claim it is suicide if he does not know the mental state of the victim?
As for Dr Khairul, he spoke like an idiot. I wonder where he got his degree. Maybe he bought it.
Now it has come to light (with the MACC letter) the chemist and the pathologists have been telling a host of lies. Wait till they are recalled to the witness box.
Who took the DNA sample from Hishamuddin.
? The chemist. Maybe the chemist took his own blood and not Hishammuddin’s blood in the privacy of his room. Surely his DNA did not match with that on the belt.
Hishamuddin did not give his blood samples.
Sam01,
All this should be throughly investigated. (i.) the fall guy who took Hishas DNA sample, (ii.) Why both the so call Doc said that it was sucide from a fall from high altitude …without keeping their options wide open (iii.) Why all these shody job….., it makes us all feel like IDIOTS. (iv.) Is political power all that want seeks in Life. GOD save this country from these JACK ASS HOLES.
“Agree and I believe the best answer they can give, among others:”
I disagree. They were asked for their opinion from their point of view and their knowledge and they accordingly shared their opinion based on their finding and professional experience. They never said that it was the absolute truth and never claimed that they have all the pieces to solve the case.
“Dr R- CSI Miami is a movie where everything is solved in 45 mins! This is real life”
Exactly. and some of your readers ought to take note.
“Dr R- Agree that would be their train of thought but are they not over extending their imagination and ability beyond their own capability”
The only one who knows all the facts is God. Every other person must make conjecture and assumption.
Hi
A ‘letter of judgement’ already had been delivered by the TBH family lawyer to the magistrate. Another ‘twist n turn’ theories and conspirations will be forward by the forensic investigators. It will be very complicated and political messy. The MACC staffs whisel blower will be grounded and in a very defensive positions….and will face alot of pressure & interogations internally by MACC and RMP. At least one of them may be directly or indirectly a witness in the TBH episode. That ‘letter of judgement’ has covered the whole forensic sinerio that was mislead by the present investigations.
Good luck to the pathologists & come what may to the CSI.
The shit hits the fan..guys RPK send the letter into cyberspace..go read it…very interesting
but need to be careful
could be another “sandiwara” also
if true THE TOYOL is damn !
Dear Doc,
Thank GOD there are still people around who still care and they are righteous in character. Doc……, I think your E.T.D. of TBH around 600am – 7.00am should stand. Is it possible to exhume TBH and get the foreign pathologist to carry out another PM to determine the E.T.D so has to contradict the findings of the other two path.
One more fact that you may have missed. Based on the autopsy, TBH was starving or hungry during the time of death. Being release at 0345, being a person that is due to register in a few hours time and hungry, a logical person will just quickly drove off to a mamak stall and eat something. However, he choose to starve in MACC office? That I find a little hard to swallow.
Dear siaoks
You forgot that MACC Shah Alam office is like Shangrila where you can order anything you want from their kitchen at any time of the day!
siaoks,
TBH starving or hunger during the time of death ?
Based on autopsy?
How you know? did you watch the inquest video?
From the the PM result, they found brown liquid in TBH stomach.
When lawyers question Dr. Khairul, he said human can digest food within 4hours.
When asked what time and what TBH had for his last meal, the witness doctor don’t know because the doctor didn’t specifically examine TBHs colon in for any bowel during the PM.
Please state if its your CSI and I’m very much agreeable with it because I assume too that TBH didn’t have any food the time while he was at MACC.
Please don’t confuse others here stating its from autopsy.
Dear Sam,
Based on what was reported in Malaysian Insider. You can acces the web page through: http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/legal/general_news/teoh_may_have_been_injured_before_death_fall.html
The following paragraph…
=====================================
Under intense interrogation from lawyer Malik Imtiaz Sarwar, the senior medical forensic expert said Teoh’s body was showing signs of decomposition by the time he performed the autopsy at noon the next day.
There was also no trace of solid food found in Teoh’s stomach, which suggests that Teoh may have been starving and in a weakened state when he died.
=====================================
Finally, as RPK says the shit has hit the fan and also Najib’s face.
There is more than meets the eye in this letter. Hishammuddin is not only taking order from Khir but also from Najib.
Who are the other members in this evil plot?
Now I wonder if Hassan Ali of PAS was also in this plot to topple PR govt so that he could be the MB?
letter review out by Raja Petra as per below link:
http://mt.m2day.org/2008/content/view/25886/84/
Thank you for sharing….
Dr,
I am puzzled. Each time I had climbed certain heights (not 14 floors for sure) and jumped to land on my feet, the basic tendancy when I landed had been to lean or fall forward. The good doctor Prasant was confident that TBH had landed on his back, thus the injuries to his anal areas. If he had dropped as such, wouldn’t he have dropped backwards, probably face up rather than sideways as shown in the photographs.
The learned doctor arrived at the conclusion that TBH was not hit on his posterior, because if he had been, he would not have been able to walk to the window to commit suicide. He had already formed this opinion. Why didn’t he think that TBH was already injured before he was thrown out.
Finally, his opinion that TBH committed suicide stinks, because, if he had, he would have left lots of marks (both finger and foot) on the window. The police obviously found a few smudges. The MACC officers had done a good cleaning job I am sure.
navinda
This Dr. Prasant is just another paid a**** (Dr R- Hi Balasi, please,keep cool..I dont want to go to jail!) just look at his face and u can see devils following him.
Balasi
Is it this Dr.Prasanth that was sought after for a second post mortem in Kugan case when the first post mortem report done by another pathologist was disputed?
Aren’t everybody was happy with the second post mortem report? mine me.
The Kugan PM was done in UHKL. Dr Prasanth was on call and hence he did the PM on that day. What you need to question aare:
(1) Why the police question the poor doctor and put soft pressure on him
(2) Why Ismail Merican (DGH) called up the Dean and department head of Pathology and screw them up following the report released by Dr Prasanth
I believe Dr Prasanth was intimidated and he was called by the police to do the post mortem on TBH not because of his expertise but because he is a non malay first and second can be “managed”
Based on the evidence of the window sill marks on the sole of Teoh’s shoe; the drag marks on the side of his shoes and the autopsy findings from his stomach contents, I can theorised that Teoh was so weak that he can hardly walk and had to be dragged from the interrogation room to the window.
Dr R- If that is the case both shoe should have marks of being dragged. The only other issue is that the floor was carpeted. Therefor it cannot give such a mark.
From the window here, it needs at least more than two persons to lift Teoh’s weakened body up the window sill and at first he was threatened that he will be pushed down.
Whilst intimidating Teoh, the officers could have lost balance and then tried to pull him back but unforunately due to the gravity pull of Teoh’s body fell down.
From the above, the people are puzzled over :-
1. Why was Teoh not allow solid food and drinks since the interrogation took place past the dinner time ? This is rather inhuman and cruel on the MACC’s part.
Does the MACC officers have any human compassion ? What if Teoh was their loved ones or siblings or even as a friend ?
2. Why was the CCTV footage given as snapshots only ? If the Police have problems with interfacing with their recorder to get continuous recording, then there are experts available outside to provide this . Why was these experts not sourced as this is an important aspect which can tarnish the MACC’s image ?
The snapshots provided only give the public the notion that there must be something to hide.
Why ? The movement and identity of people in between the snapshots are important to show what happens in between.
3. Why did the police rule out murder in the first place even before the investigation began ? With this, a lot of possible answers and clues are missed out and would not do justice to Teoh and his family.
4. Could the interrogation taken place in another room and on another floor ? This is to prevent evidence of blood splatter being detected. Were all the rooms checked by the police and checked for blood splatter as well ?
Dr R- That is certainly possible
5. Why is the security so “lax” for Teoh when he was allowed to go back but allowed to sleep on the sofa because he was tired. If the MACC officers knew this, why didn’t they called up the family or Ean to come and fetch him ? This is highly unlikely as Teoh would loved to go back as soon as possible.
6. The MACC Board had to ensure that CCTV is installed in every interrogation room , corridor and entrances and all CCTV cameras must be in working condition for all future interrogation.
7. There must be a fool-proof security system of person signing in and out and the time of leaving in conjunction with the CCTV footage. This will show MACC is transparent in their dealings.
8. There should be a positive release of the persons taken in for questioning. i.e signing in and out in an official log book and informing the next of kin on their ” release ” in order for them to come and collect them if possible.
NAZRI:USE YOUR GUN IF NEEDED………is this link with the letter YESTERDAY ?
I think the MACC and Nazri is too quick to blame PR people when they said that it will not stop them from doing investigations among politician.
All you know someone did it for the purpose of putting the blame on PR
For the first time ever, I am writing in as a concerned citizen seeking for nothing but the truth. I have followed the TBH inquest through the media, and was taken in with interest on both the doctors’ findings. This is regarding the lack of significant evidence on which they draw their conclusions. I have three comments to make:
Firstly, the learned doctor has come to conclusion that Teoh must have jumped off the building, the reason being that the landing spot is substantially far from the foot of the building. Only a qualified physicist can attest to this inference. A slight force will be sufficient to displace a person horizontally, due to the substantial height involved.
Secondly, the sound made at impact can be explosive. I wonder why nobody noticed it, even in the stillness of the early morning (6.00am?).
Thirdly, I feel that great progress may be achieved by inviting a qualified physicist into the investigation. Perhaps it may be a good idea to perform a trial on dummy, recording everything including the volume of sound/noise at landing. I pray that the truth will be revealed.
Low k s,
Totally agree with u….we cannot just depend on two pathologist who from day one have all talk nothing but nonsense. PR should get all sort of professionals to dissect this case.
Doc,
Just out of curiousity, I would like to ask if it is possible for the eyeballs to have “exploded” out of it’s sockets if one i.e. such as this case, from say 14th floor due to the height and the force that had been calculated by other before me. Is it possible? If it is medically possible, wouldn’t the same be noted in TBH case?
TQVM, doc for all the input.
sorry for the error in my email address
Laymen already know the foregone outcome of this inquest in this bolehland – TBH committed suicide ! The police engages these two incompetent doctors to further hoohwink us. What a pitiful state we Malaysian are in now. Only god can safe these rotten souls. But we Malaysian must act together to safe this country !
Sir
A man who intends to commit suicide would have opened the window to jump but would have not shut the window before he jumps. Which one of this window was still open? None reported… did he jump at all?
I was waiting for someone to say this…. congratulations you are definitely very observant.. The doctors and the lawyers at the inquest forgot about it
Could the late Mr. Teoh been brought to a different place by a car then brutalised elsewhere then dropped him back to the podium to die?
Nature of injury is consistent with fall from height
Who has left the building by car at those wee hours? Can the survaillance camere be viewed from car parks? Like the writer I agree, MACC is not ShangrLa; anyone in that state can only think of one thing “when the hell I can get out of this building?”; therefore the person who saw the late Mr. Teoh resting on the couch must be investigated throughly.
Its also make sense that he would have called somone immediately after the interogation (even if he intended suicide), till now we are not sure the outcomes of his mobile communications not from his cell but from the telecommunication companies. Even a person suicide almost at all cases they leave messages or write notes….
Is there any other camera’s from other buildings facing MACC?
I dont think anyone would keep his watch less it would be haunting for the person consciences, but it could have been flushed in the toilet somewhere or it may be still hiding to be discovered. Oh on one more thing, at that hour, I think it’s not too much if I suggest that Late Teoh may have gone to toilet to take a leak or freshen up a lil… was the toilets investigated?
in many placed the lift are shut at night.. has the security officers been enquired of this? Which leave operates at night and was there any prints or traces? its too late now for dusting… any survaillance camera in lift..? Is the staircase door always opened? Were there bright lights enough for Teoh to walk down via stairs? Would anyone walk down the stairs at that wee hours..? unless the lift was not operating…
This case pronouncedly seems hiding and clearing traces and evidence. I so it could only be the work of somone who has much experience in Forensic or Investigators or they watch too much of CSI.
I am still baffled by the shoddy investigations and wondering of the many possibilities…
I hope the investigators THINK OUT OF THE BOX and not just where the interrogation took place.
And the mystery deepens with the appearance of a 5 page letter stating details of the incident and naming names. I hope the police will investigate the contents of the letter and not the writer of the letter (as normally the circumstances)
Inkues: Koroner arah siasat surat misteri
Ogos 19, 09 6:40pm
Mahkamah koroner hari ini mengarahkan polis melakukan siasatan lanjut terhadap kandungan sepucuk surat misteri yang mengandungi butiran berkaitan kematian Teoh Beng Hock.
Koroner Azmil Muntapha Abas yang meneliti kandungan surat itu berkata ia jelas terdapat beberapa elemen yang berkait rapat dengan perjalanan prosiding inkues tersebut.
“Oleh itu, saya perlu mengarahkan pegawai penyiasat kes ini Ahmad Nazri Zainal untuk menyiasat kandungan surat ini yang berkaitan dengan skop prosiding inkues bagi menentukan punca kematian (Teoh),” katanya, lapor Bernama.
Beliau juga mengingatkan peguam semua pihak terbabit supaya tidak mendedahkan sebarang maklumat penting berhubung kandungan surat itu kepada media yang boleh menjejaskan siasatan polis kelak.
Surat tersebut diterima semalam oleh peguam keluarga Teoh, Gobind Singh Deo, daripada seseorang, sebaik prosiding inkues itu berakhir lewat petang.
“Semalam, saya telah menerima sepucuk surat bertarikh 5 Ogos yang mengandungi perkara-perkara berkaitan prosiding inkues, tetapi saya tidak boleh memberitahu kandungannya di sini (mahkamah),” kata Gobind sebaik prosiding bermula pada jam 3 petang.
“Dengan ini, saya ingin membuat permohonan kepada mahkamah supaya mengarahkan pegawai penyiasat untuk menyiasat kandungan surat itu yang sangat penting dan relevan dalam prosiding inkues ini,” katanya.
Surat yang mengandungi lima muka surat bertaip itu kemudian diserahkan kepada koroner Azmil Muntapha untuk diteliti.
Peguam Tan Hock Chuan, bagi pihak kerajaan, tidak membantah permohonon Gobind terhadap siasatan lanjut itu dan berkata: “Dakwaan dalam surat ini perlu disiasat oleh polis kerana kita semua berada di sini untuk mendapatkan kebenaran dalam perkara ini.
“Ada beberapa nama disebut dalam surat itu. Pihak polis perlu diberikan peluang untuk mengesahkan kebenaran dakwaan dalam surat ni atau pun sebaliknya,” kata Tan.
Di luar mahkamah, Gobind memberitahu media bahawa surat itu diterimanya di dalam bangunan mahkamah di sini semalam, antara jam 5 dan 6 petang.
Beliau berkata surat itu mempunyai banyak maklumat yang relevan kepada koroner tentang sebab-sebab yang membawa kepada kematian Teoh.
“Walau bagaimanapun koroner telah meminta supaya semua pihak tidak mendedahkan (kandungan surat itu) kerana siasatan akan dijalankan,” katanya.
Apabila ditanya sama ada surat itu akan membawa apa-apa perubahan dalam kes itu, Gobind berkata: “Pada saya, ya, ia mungkin akan membawa maklumat baru.”
Teoh, 30, setiausaha politik kepada Pengerusi Jawatankuasa Tetap Kampung Baru dan Pengurusan Kilang Haram Selangor Ean Yong Hian Wah ditemui mati pada 16 Julai lepas di tingkat lima Plaza Masalam di sini, selepas memberi keterangan sebagai saksi siasatan dakwaan salah guna wang kerajaan negeri Selangor kepada SPRM Selangor yang berpejabat di plaza itu.
Prosiding disambung Isnin depan.
Dr,
One of the suicide reasons Dr.Prasant testified to the coroner was that he found a consistent straight line mark under both left & right shoe. He mentioned that this is only possible if Teoh was squatting on the window frame (metal).
Even Gobind n Malek did not ask further on this. Maybe the lawyers should have asked the thickness of the window metal frame and the mark on the shoe to compare if it matches.
Unless the mark was there under the shoe long before Teoh arrived at MACC.
Any comments on this dr ?
Sam,
I sincerely feel that Doctor Rafick, should assist both Gobind, Malik n the others when it involves medical questioning on probabilities.
If a huge reward is posted by any chinese towkay for any MACC officer coming to spill the bean on what actually happened to cause Teoh’s untimely fall to death and if that reward is huge enough to enable whistleblower and his family to retire and perhaps migrate overseas, this case will have by now have more than enough evidence and whisteblowers coming forth. I suppose many MACC officers will come forth with evidence if the price is right as they too know that it is how AMENO / BN works or operates all the way starting from its election of office bearers at the brach level to its highest level of choosing those in power.
If the reward is big enough, some people will be willing to say anything.
Hi Dr,
There is a mysterious letter deliver to Gobind. Now TBH’s inquest is getting more interesting.
Dear Doc,
Access card for entry to MACC office, this log off all personnel who were n who entered MACC on that faithful day is recorded…., were they all accounted for the DNA testing. Then we can narrow down the culprit…..but i feel it’s about too late they would have it all contaminated.
DrRafick, I follow your blog very closely and I see more logic in your analysis and opinion. Keep at it coz my day will be bad if I don’t see your updated post. And TQVM too….
I believe Dr. Prashant is an Indian National who is on contract teaching forensic medicine at Universiti Malaya. That makes things so easy. They can always threaten him to terminate his contract and send him packing back to India if he doesn’t toe the line.
Alternatively, I am sure they have checked thoroughly his background and found some weaknesses or something illegal or something which he may have done wrong and perhaps threatened to expose and humiliate him if he does not push for the suicide theory.
equaliser,
All of us already know………, just waiting to see how they are going to twist n turn……, more interesting then Dallas series, if ur from my age group.
Dear Equaliser
Wasn’t it not too long ago, Dr Prashant was treated as a hero in Kugan case..
Yes, Dr Rafick, it was the same Dr. Prashant in the Kugan case. I understand the police raided his office and seize the PM reports, photographs etc that was related to that case. I do believe that he was ‘turn over’. It could easily be done by a no. of ways:
1. Physical threats and intimidation. Threats to one’s life.
2. Offers of large amount of money
3. Blackmail
4. Threats to cancel his work permit and pack off to India
5. Threats of jail or legal action for real/framed wrongdoing.
It could be any of these. People with a weak resolve would easily be intimidated and ‘turn over’.
It is very strange why the police will use Dr. Prashant after the Kugan case in which he caused so much problem for them UNLESS he has been turned over. As an Indian national it’s easy to pressure him by dangling his contract in front of him. I think we are are going to see this doctor again in many police post-mortum involving suspicious deaths. Mark my words!
It has something to do with his work permit.
The culprit/s involved in TBH’s death must be condemnned and severely punished. Does the government really think that it can pull off the trick and cover up this mess of MACC? Would have been better if it puts in all effort to seek the truth underlying this tragic case.
Perhaps, then, it can regain the trust of its people and some of its dignity. Unfortunately, Malaysia is being led by “D” grade leaders who have absolutely no interest in justice, equity or nation building.
Dr Rafick, I’ve been following your CSI theories closely and I find them very instructive. I’m very impressed by your knowledge and determined efforts. Thank you for enlightening us.
Fellow GP
Sydney
drkytan
1. Personally, I DO NOT think that Najib or the BN government has a role in covering up the death. However, I believe that the cover up is localized affair within MACC.
2. The BN government will earned the people support and respect if they showed equal or greater enthusiasm to get to the bottom of the case.
3. At the moment, it is really sad that MCA/MIC/PPP leaders has been rather silent on the matter
drrafick,
I beg to defer to your thinking that ‘Najib or the BN govt do not have a role in covering up the death’ Reason is the first to investigate is the Police and as we all know, the PDRM is under the instruction of BN. Why must the police waited for 3 days after the death to confiscate all cctv recording and why did they jump to the conclusion that TBH commit suicide even before the investigation started???
drrafick
i fully agree with para 1 minus the cover up and 2 .
on para 3 minus ppp, if i am not wrong they were publicly supporting and calling for a royal commission be setup for tbh case.mine me.
since the is no clues eg; finger/palm/foot prints on the window of 14 floor, could it be that all the “action” took place on the 15 floor, remember they didn’t allow access to the floor/rooms during the coroner’s visit.
Uncle buck
I believe the police investigated the 15th floor but I am perplexed on why the Inquest team was not allowed to access the 15th floor..
(Even not all the “action” but I believe something definitely happened on the 15th floor. I posted the below last week.)
“The window which was visited is widely theorised to be the window in which Teoh left the building before plunging to his death on the fifth floor landing.
It is located at a corridor near several interrogation rooms used by the Selangor office of the Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission (MACC).
During this morning’s two-hour visit, coroner Azmil Muntapha Abas and the legal teams also viewed the visitors lounge, pantry, the sofa on which Teoh allegedly slept and the interrogation room where Teoh was questioned.
Following this, the coroner went to the fifteenth floor, also used as a MACC office where a ping-pong table was located.
When the team entered the 15th floor office, they were not allowed to visit individual rooms. ”- ( malaysiakini )
——————————————————————————————————————————————————
The whole issue here is the police classified this case as “sudden death”. Many evidence believed to be important not taken even though its said in the inquest that there’s about close to 100 items – “barang kes” but we dont know what it is.
- Tan Boon Hwa said he heard people playing ping-pong in the next room where he was interrogated that night. Meaning, he was interrogated at 15th floor.
- Teoh, was interrogated in 14th floor.
- Lee Wye Wing and another person was also said to be interrogated on the same night in MACC office but not sure if its 14th or 15th floor.
- Tan Boon Hwa meet Teoh (alive) at 14th floor pantry at 6am.
- A “high ranking” MACC officer saw Teoh (dead? alive?) on the couch at 6.10am. The officer left MACC building within minutes after that. The guard at the Plaza Masalam also mentioned that its unusual for the officer to be in the office so late.
- Why the inquest team was allowed to visit interrogation room on 14th floor but not 15th floor? Is it because it was a surprise request by the inquest team and MACC was not prepared to reveal certain things?
- Did the POLIS seize the electronic “door access” system from the MACC office ? All records will be in the “door access” system PC, the movements of all authorized card access holders will precisely recorded.
- How about cigarette butts ? since the polis have all the DNAs from MACC officers, they should have marked and tagged the location of all cigarette buts from inside, stairway, office and 5th floor corridor. This can simply show the presence of any person in any particular area. FORENSIC can also determine if its fresh or old cigarette butts.
- Metal piece found beside Teohs body is now confirmed as a wrist watch. High chances for it to stop at the time when body landed on the 5th floor corridor due to the impact. The pic is not clear but, my guess is 6.15, 3.30, 9.00, 11.45
But anyone can adjust the time and throw it down too to manipulate and also not necessary its time of death.
- What is the source of the unknown DNA found on TEOHs body? blood or something else ?
- The more dustier its more easier to find prints on any surface. But our “FORENSIK” is saying otherwise.
Calling MACC Murderers,
Please remember that there is a God and He knows what you did last month. He will prick your mind, give you sleepless nights, give you nightmares, instill fear in your wives and your children.
Finally, one God fearing man will stand up and speak the truth. He will expose the murderers.
Just ONE TRUTH and your whole house of cards, with all the kings dogs and men from MACC, PDRM and BN will fall.
Man proposes, God disposes.
Dear Sam01
There are good people in MACC. I am sure the truth will eventually surfaced from MACC officers who has conscience.
Dear Dr,
I have read your articles with much interest and again, I am saddened by the tragic and senseless death that had occured. I must say that your deductions and opinions are spot on and well respected. God bless you, doc!
It saddened my heart to know that another cover-up is on the way! My friends and I asked this question each day, ” How many more must die for such corrupt powers? ”
God bless this nation of ours!
What I see are two doctors making a fool of themselves trying to “prove” their pre-conceived conclusion of suicide by picking facts which suits and ignoring those which don’t while making unsupported postulations.
Take this exchange:
Tan: Could the injury on the anal region result from assault by an object, before the deceased hit the ground, as one theory suggested?’
Prashant: It is unlikely in this present case because such trauma to the anal orifice with multiple tear will be very painful and with that pain for a person to walk to the window and ultimately fall from that window it is unlikely.
————–
The dr. has shown how biased he is by clinging to his theory of suicide. He works backwards from his preconceived notion. As Teoh would be in too much pain to walk over to the window and jump down so his anus could not have been punctured by assault. How’s this for circular logic?
Ken
1. In solving crime, we all work backwards but I believe the doctors has taken an unusual path.
2. Personally, I think the doctors should have limit their opinions related to the injuries and it is consistency to fall from height. They should not have commit to the suicide theory and should have told the inquest that answer is best answered by the police investigators which has more clues.
3. Now the police will say that it is suicide because the doctors said so.
The strange things and that strange circumstances can make strange things happen.
Now a letter appears out of no where !
The TBH lawyers got it…
Maybe somebody wants to reveal some very important and critical information and facts.
People who knows much about it and have a good heart and a good soul !
A humane person “Who wants to put and end to this “sandiwara” and circus show ”
THE SOUL OF THE DEAD MAY BE HAUNTING SOMEBODY !
“IF NOT ANOTHER TWO INNOCENT DOCTORS WILL BE FOREVER BLAMED FOR SENDING THE BAD GUYS FREE AND CONDEMN AN INNOCENT MAN OF A CRIME HE DID NOT COMMIT – SUICIDE !”
WE ARE AT INTERESTING TIMES NOW, VERY INTERESTING INDEED, NEVER BEFORE HAS THIS NATION SEEN SO MUCH DRAMA…..MORE THEN ENOUGH.
THERE IS NO MORE NEED TO WATCH THE TV AND MOVIES OR ASTRO ANYMORE !
I believe there are good people in MACC but they are being forced to clamp up… someone finally decided to do the right thing..
CSI/Doc,
There are always good people around…….it’s just a matter of whether they want to get up and be accounted for. What goes around comes around……it’s just a matter of time like how DPM feels the HEAT about his land dealings in JB 18 years ago.
hi there,
I came across your blog from the ”Justice for Beng Hock” facebook group.
hope you don’t mind my pointing out of some grammatical errors(it is probably an oversight by you), I chose to do so as it is in your shout-out–the 1st thing that caught ppl’s attention.
”Perakians should raised….in their car or wear a black armed band” (the correct sentence should read ”Perakians should raise…in their cars or wear a black arm band”)
do keep writing=)
tqvm for pointing it out…
I was thought english in bahasa!
Germaine,
I think ur grammer is has good as mind……but ur wrong, the whole context of the sentence should be reconstructed….., but we blogs as long as we get the message it’s just fine …no need to correct our Doc. Good day Germaine
drrafick
you too have a sense of humour.it tickle my stomach by saying “I was thought english in bahasa!”. in my case too.
nobody care v much 4 grammar or speling these day unles it’s legal doc ya. fig out how young ppl txting these days … lol. truth is priority: who killed TBH? who killed kugan? who killed altantuya? who r squandering rakyats’ money? drrafick u may wanna do an xperiment: try dropping an uncooked egg & a hardboiled egg from the same hts. compare the results …
germaine,
“hope you don’t mind my pointing out of some grammatical errors’
It should be:
“I hope you don’t mind me pointing out some grammatical errors”
Thanks.
germaine
learning is an on going process,it never end.
The 2 doctors seem to have made a pre-conceived conclusion of suicide and just select what they want to “prove” their case while ignoring many contradictory details like Teoh’s facial injury which could not have been caused by the fall, the broken watch strap, the belt marks on Teoh’s waist showing his belt had been pulled, his buttocks injury which appeared to have been caused by a rotan, the anus puncture, etc.
These details are indications to what actually happened. They cannot be ignored or glossed over.
Even if Teoh jumped himself, it is not for the doctors to speculate on suicide. A person may be coerced to jump. He could be trying to escape from some brutality inflicted on him. There is no way on God’s earth he wanted to kill himself.
In U.S. there was a case in which a black women who dented the car of a white man on a bridge was assaulted by the man until she jumped from the bridge into the swirling river to escape him and died. Would the doctors call this suicide?
The 2 doctors seem to be bending over backwards to push the inquest to a suicide decision. As for Dr. Prashant, he is an expatriate Indian dr. working in a govt hospital. How easy is it to put pressure on him by dangling his work permit?
Ken,
U might be just right.
Thanks Doctor for your hard work to help debunk the fable this inquest is becoming! Our poor Malaysia!
dr rafick
i agree with you on dna testing for all macc officer. not just from shah alam office. one more thing why the lawyer dont ask for the cctv on that day to check the suspect?
why the police only reveal about tbh coming to the building? or check the cctv after the office hour, maybe the 2 mysterious dna man coming late that night.
8. The police investigations did not find any prints on the window and window frames. With his height and the height of the window he would definitely hold on to the window or the frames if he had climbed out. There would be prints, event it is a partial prints. The police could analyze these prints and says that if the “partial prints” had any resemblance to TBH prints. As reported, the police did find 8 partial prints but they could not confirm who the owners of these finger prints are. This includes TBH himself.
1.I reckon this forensic police guy must have been ‘instructed’ repeatedly by the wicked IO to collect sample prints extensively at the 14th floor windows, to establish TBH being the owner of one or more of the 8 partial prints to justify all out their ‘suicide’ theory.
2.However the results are unfavourable and negative,meaning TBH didn’t own those prints.
3.But the collected samples has to be discarded to cover ‘member member’ who owns the partial prints.So how?
4.Don’t worry. Let’s create a ‘specification’ of prints to justify the non-relevance of the partial prints!
5. How ‘professional’ are the crooks?? To the general laymen, those ‘crooks’ project/appear to be ‘professional’.
6. To our neighbouring police professionals, our ‘crooks’ are IDIOTS who doesn’t know how to cover their ass holes in full public view!!
I am extremely curious as to why Dr Prashant was ‘booked’ or recruited by the Police for this inquest.
First, they raided his office after his much acclaimed post mortem report on Kugan was widely publicised and took away some of his document.
Then, just before he was due to testify he, mysteriously, felt ill together with Dr Khairul and then both recovered just as mysteriously at about the same time(which was only after a short while).
What a fishy coincidence, I thought!
Could it be that Dr Prashant is now a prized catch for the police as he would have no credibility problem?
Was there any deal struck between them to get the Indian pathologist to cooperate like what happened to the two Pakatan frogs in Perak?
Was Dr Prashant held at ransom? Well, you don’t simply employ someone whose office you have just raided without raising any suspicion, do you?
Markky,
I totally agree with u, this is all possibly a SANDIWARA, just lets wait for the contents of the mysterious letter that was handed down to Gobind.
Valid point
Latest news!
“Gobind said the five-page typed letter had ‘a handful of names’ and material facts and circumstances relevant to the inquest.”
The Star
“The ongoing inquiry to discover how political aide Teoh Beng Hock died got a shot in the arm today when lawyer Gobind Singh Deo handed in a letter said to contain explicit details which may prove crucial to the inquest.”
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/35531-mystery-letter-delivers-new-twist-to-teoh-inquest
There are too many inconsistencies (I would not go so far as say lies yet) in the statements given by the police and MACC. They say Teoh was released at 3.45 am. There is no proof that he actually was. And if he indeed was released there is absolutely no reason for him to stay on in the MACC office. The police first said his personal belongings were missing, then they were found in MACC’s possession. This would indicate to me that Teoh was still under custody at the time of his death.
Then the way the whole investigation was conducted. I think my 15 year-old son after watching a few episodes of CSI can do a better job.
All the investigation by Police, the government doctors are only concentrate into how to prove TBH had committed suicide.
There are still lot of evidence on their hand to prove this is NOT a suicide, sadly it is not reveal by them.
I have lost hope on the inquest. You won’t get the truth at the end.
Dr Rafick, you did a good job. Keep it on, lot of us here will support your finding. Thank you for your hard work
This is what we call ‘selective revelation’ by experts/professionals who are yet to earn trust from the general public.
Dear doc,
Many of us too find it hard to believe that TBH commit suicide. Today’s Sun report about anal injuries is shocking news. Does that mean poor TBH was subjected to such sadistic torture? Why can’t the probe reveal the truth? It is very perplexing indeed. I for one would like to see transparency in this inquest. This inquest is proving to be too mired in technicalities which is lost on most of us.
Dear Moimoi
Everyone can speculate about the anal injuries.
However despite not having access to the body and relying on the mechanics of the fall, PM reports which detailed associated injuries, I strongly believe that:
(a) Anal injury IS NOT due to any kind of anal torture
(b) It is consistent with the fractured sacral/coccyx bone that penetrated the anus. This bone was fractured and it is located very close to the anus.
Me think after the few blunders by the police in the Kugan and AB case, they would have covered their bases with the doctors this time around. Even to a layman, most of the conclusions/suggestions of suicide by the so called experts, are highly suspect. The nature and the way the forensic were conducted itself give rise to even more questions.
It would have shocked and surprised me if the official findings is that TBH did not commit suicide. At best it would be an open verdict or death due to “misadventure”.
It is very hard for an ordinary layman to come to a common understanding with the line of arguement provided by such emminent professional. Normally such emminence person have a totally different, maybe rarefied, perspective on how such an important issue can be different from what ordinary layman and woman can come to. Very hard indeed. That is probably why they are such “emminent” person in their field of expertise and can counted to provide a “twisted” expert opinion to such a public case.
Dr. Prashant listed 9 reasons why he thought it was suicide. Let us examine the reasons and see if it is consistent with the facts.
***************************************
Teoh’s injuries were consistent with fall from height;
*******************************************
So ? He could have been thrown off the window and this would still be considered as murder. Silly little twit.
****************************************
Injuries to the right lower limbs especially the fractures of the long bones showed “guarding effect” (the muscle tone was maintained at the time of the fall which resulted in fractures of the long bones);
********************************************
So ? How does this proved suicide ? Silly little twit.
*****************************************
Multiple tears at groin area of Teoh’s pants and the lower back had vertical splits. These tears, he said, occurred due to the extensive stretching of the loin area due to the impact;
*********************************************
So ? How does this proved suicide ? Silly little twit.
******************************************
- The barrier (window sill) which can prevent a fall was not below the centre of gravity (the point in the middle of his pelvis). He said this ruled out accidental death as he could not have slipped (the floor near the window of the 14th floor which Teoh was believed to have fallen from was carpeted);
**********************************************
So ? How does this proved suicide ? It could rule out accidental death but it does not rule out murder. Silly little twit.
*******************************************
- There were 3mm scratch marks at the sole of Teoh’s shoes which were consistent with a person squatting on the window frame;
**********************************************
But all indications were that he felled backwards. The final posture of the person is not consistent with a person falling forward. If he had climbed onto the window sill imagine how much effort he needed to turn to face backwards.
A forensic pathology book I read on the net said that suicides are normally forward facing and as a result they would have landed on their head first. Teoh’s skull would have been cracked open and the brain thrown out. That is forward facing suicide.
The horizontal marking on teoh’s shoe sole could be a result of the murderer lifting teoh’s body onto the window sill, resting it there before pushing him over.
I think what this silly little twit was thinking was that he was murdered and then thrown out of the window and this was ruled out in his mind. He doesn’t realise that throwing a live body, eventhough it was unconscious, out of a window is also considered as murder.
** Dr. I offer no apology for calling him a twit. **
Just to add: even if TBH was already dead on the 14th floor after being interogated to death, and then thrown out – it’s still homicide! Silly little twit!
And no apologies from me either for calling him a twit.
noyawns,
Perfectly true.
Morning Dew,
Just because this Doc. is from INDIA and that they produce doctors by the ship loads…….mean he is any better then our average doctors…….., this guy is in malaysia to make a living and he will sell himself to achieve it. I hope this is not offensive but he is just talking ROTS.
hi dr…
many cases relatedto crime, law n judges…its so obvious that here in malaysia there is no transparency. being lay people n not educated still we can make judgement towards what is right n wrong.Its so sad to c all these unhealthy ways of handling crime taking place in our country.Our crime rate i guess is high just that what we hear only things that are at the tip of the iceberg…everything is frustating n guess frustration mounting even more as we don’t live an era that can be fooled anymore….i only pray the Almighty will be wt the rt people…
just like sirul n azhar under the face mask even before wide spread of H1N1…y cover their faces…theres nothing to hide…
TBH is gng to be another HIS STORY…
simply fed up
fauziah
everybody talks about high crime rates in the country.it is good talking about it and then keep praying.it will be much helpful if everyboby are ever willing to do their ‘part’ in preventing evitable crimes such as vehicle theft which contribute most to the high crime index with taking extra precautionary step by locking it”properly’.of cause not by leaving our young children inside the vehicle with it engine running when we were busy doing our shopping.and if it was driven of by a culprit then surely the blame game starts.educate ourselves,children,friends and neighbours to sensitive or alert on thing that we could be careless and thus preventing a crime from taking place.anything we find that is suspicious,call the police[wether you love them or not].if they fail to response in time,question their superior.aren’t we the taxpayer are their bosses.after doing our part and our contribution toward reducing the crime rates then question them on their KPI or KRA or whatever it is.together we progress toward a law abiding citizen of our country.mind me.