1. Last night I received an email from an anonymous (Lets call him Mr. A) person who claims to be working with the mainstream media. I am not sure whether it is true or not but he claims that all MSM media will be running stories in the next few days that the wound on TBH base left hand (the media will say wrist) will be played up as a sign of suicide. It dawn upon me that I have not said anything about the triangular mark on the right hand.
2. My initial assessments without an image magnifier suggest that it could be some sort of a stain. With a magnifier, several important points could be highlighted. The first being, the location of the wound is not on the wrist but at the base of the right hand.
3. Secondly, the wound looks like a jagged wound and not a clean cut with blood dripping towards the center of the palm. It certainly looks like a deep laceration wound but then one thing that strikes me is that the amount of blood is minimal.
4. For a deep laceration wound, one would expect large amount of blood and blood clot over the wound. It was not there. Why? This is indeed a tough question to answer and there are several possibilities that can explain the nature and severity of the wound.
5. Firstly it could be that injury to the hand occurred after he died! Going by the nature of the wound on the right hand, it could have scraped a sharp object as he was being moved. Could it be that the sharp object is actually the retained portion of the broken window latch?
6. The other explanation is that it is simply a superficial laceration and as such the bleeding is minimal. Whether it is a superficial (shallow) or a deep laceration, it is not a clean cut. It looks like it has scraped against a sharp object. It does not look like a cut on the wrist.
7. Certainly if someone wants to commit suicide he will not cut there. It is just far too far (distal) from the wrist line where the major blood vessels are located. The cut would be from a sharp object and it would be a clean cut. If the person is right handed the cut would be on the left. I am not sure if TBH is right or left handed.
8. Some readers have postulated that the body was carried and placed at the site where the body was found. Humbly, I beg to differ. There are just too many tell tale signs to suggest that he had a fall from height.
9. Some readers suggested that a metal piece that was lying on the ground is not a watch and suggested that it could be a part of the window. I disagree that it is part of the window based on the color of the material alone.
10. With the help of a magnifier, I had a chance to have a closer look at the brightly shining object. What I saw is a metallic chromed object which may look like a watch or a bracelet. There is another thing that I saw on the object which looks like an image of Charlie Chaplin. I had magnified it for the readers to judge. Now I am not exactly sure what it is but I still have a strong believe that it is a watch. I might be wrong. At this stage, I believe suicide theory is definitely out.
11. I was alerted by some readers on the existence of a new blog which has made serious allegations against 2 DAP State Exco members on purportedly explaining “DAP corruption modus operandi” in Selangor at www.t4tbh.blogspot.com. I suspect that it is part of a counter strategy that is being deployed by certain people to deflect the current issue surrounding TBH. Who are they? I can safely assume that what you ever think is right.
-
- Picture sent to me by readers
For clearer view, download here.
Note
12. A reader sent me the last photo (from kosmo) which I have enlarged and marked accordingly. From this angle, the wound in the buttock is clearer. The two legs appears fractured. The presence of a kerb that contribute to the direction of blood flow is also confirmed. There is visible signs that there is a hip fracture. The last piece of picture conclusively prove that his injuries are consistent with a fall from height.
Please note that
(a) There is no watch on the left wrist right shoe looks odd, as if the base came off the main shoe leaving behind the glue marks.
(b) The sole of the right shoe looks odd. It appears that the sole is split from the main shoe leaving behind glue marks on the main shoe
Disclaimer
The above writing is based on assessment of various images and writings on the mainstream media (MSM) as well as the online media. I am trying to understand the tragedy that took place at Plaza Masalam. It would be great if I have access to MACC office and location where the body was found but without such access, readers can expect some gross margin of error in my writing. Do let me know what the errors are so that we can come to a clear conclusion on what transpired
To Lokman,
Two reasons why they (whoever they are) didn’t give their DNAs.
1) Their DNA will match with the ones on the deceased.
2) Fear of DNA manipulation. U know BN drill, why the DNA bill is passed hastily and Anwar’s first sodomy case.
To Lokman and BedEgg,
Hey guys. Respect your comments.
But as a prelude, ever heard of “red-herring” ?
1. Pls read the SUN paper, today edition.
“He(Lawyer Gobind) also clarified that the two persons who have yet to give their DNA samples were only informed on Tuesday afternoon, and that he was sure they would cooperate if police were to call them again.”
2. So don’t jump to conclusion that these 2 are main suspects
(For Mr Gobind..U better get hold of a sample of the 2 swaps taken from late Teoh, and MAKE sure the DNA samples taken from these 2 gentlemen are analysed in YOUR, or expert representative, presence. U get my drift ?)
3. More pertinent point is.. of all the DNA samples already taken, was there a match against the DNA samples swapped, esp.against the DNA from the MACC team involved whilst the late Teoh was in their custody ?? Aren’t the they main players ?
4. The reply given by the lead lawyer (Mr.Tan) was rather evasive.Let the experts decide, he said.
5. My question : He (Mr Tan)is in possessions of the full DNA reports made by the chemists. Surely the DNA report would have mentioned in the results. Eg. Swapped sample “A” from belt of Late Teoh – matched DNA sample taken from Mr.X. No??
6. And then he threw a “red-herring”. Report delayed due to 2 persons refusing to submit their DNA.
7. Also Wondered why take samples from so many unlikely suspects, including his family members ??
To have a thorough investigations ? Or to hamper /prolong the Inquest….?
8. Remember, a time frame was given – 15 DAYS to wrap up the case i.e. from 19 Jul 2009 to 12 Aug 2009. ( What does this means ? No case after 15 days, even if witnesses had yet to give their evidence in court ?). Yeah..arguments are bound to follow on this Dateline issue. 15 Court hearings days, or 15 calander days.What about adjournments decided by the Coroner ?
Or Come 12 Aug 2009, Someone may announced something like.. sorry, we are closing the case…enough time given to all parties..according the existing laws..date already set..blah,blah,blah.
That will be ANTI-CLIMAX of the century !!
Just observing and thinking out loud out-of-the-box.
(Hint : Dont look for the obvious. Shift out the chaff to see the grains. Take reports splashed out by MSM with pitch of salt)
Happy hunting, guys.
Media reported ..
“another DNA profile from a swab taken from the belt worn by Teoh also consisted of a mixture of male DNA types – one matched Teoh’s blood stain specimen while the other was from an unknown male”
So the other unknown DNA not necessarily must be a blood stain since it was not mentioned.
Can be anything… sweat, dandruff, …..
Lots of possibilities !!!!!
e.g 1, hand- shake with sweaty-palm person, then you go on adjusting your pants holding your belt.
e.g 2, office couch !!! surely many people use it . What if someones dandruff is on the couch?
e.g3, someone with sweaty-palm hold TBH by his belt and .. doom !!!!
To Ale,
Eve heard of mis-reporting. Don’t blame us blame the news who reported it as it is before. It’s everybody’s right to make speculation since the source itself is untrustworthy. Else, the police might have get away with the ‘suicide’ theory without us pointing to what’s wrong with their investigation.
And btw, we only keep mentioning the obvious because some people (like the police) keep hiding the obvious, thinking we are that dumb. Example? Lingam actually managed to get away with “He looks like me, talks like me, walks like me, but not me” bullshit statement. What does that tell you about BN perception on the rakyat? They really thought we are that dumb! We need to literally point to them the obvious or else they just side lined it, thinking we may be actually dumb enough to miss them. Remember, this is Bolehland.
DNA DNA DNA, Why is everyone talking about DNA, just because the prosecution lawyer Tan mentioned it in passing? He had missed out the trusty old fashion finger prints, why had not he mentioned those. Shifty bugger! Hope he is genuine in helping this case. Latest medical review said DNA matching is not altogether conculsive.
william wang
Latest medical review said DNA matching is not altogether conclusive so are finger prints.mind me.
Can u direct me to the relevant articles that points to ur conclusion..
Doc R via blackberry….
I have seem a couple of speculations made on how Teoh may have ended that way. One particular speculation is how there is not much blood considering where he fell. Here’s my own theory. What if he didn’t fall from the 14th floor but somewhat lower than that? Even 4 floors down compare to 9 floors can still be deadly if landed wrongly, say he broke his neck on the edge of the concrete. What if the latch was purposely planted there to make it look like he fell from there so that the investigation will divert from the actual floor? By all means, if I was the culprit, I would have at least remove the obvious latch which came off right?
The DNA trace of an unidentified man was found on the back of the blazer and belt of TBH. Teoh’s DNA trace was also found on the blazer and belt.
Two people had declined to have their DNA samples taken.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/7/29/nation/20090729172813&sec=nation
Now theres every reason to believe that TBH was manhandled. There must have been a great struggle and the killer was injured and left traces of his blood on TBH’s belt and jacket. Investigators most likely got the DNA traces from the blood of the killer. Why did 2 people decline to give their DNA samples if they are not guilty?
Meanwhile RPK postulated that TBH could have been killed and his body carried down to make it look like suicide.
Compare the two photos at:
http://mt.m2day.org/2008/content/view/25036/84/
The DNA trace of an unidentified man was found on the back of the blazer and belt of TBH. Besides the DNA trace of the “mystery man”, Teoh’s DNA trace was also found on the blazer and belt.
Two people had declined to have their DNA samples taken.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/7/29/nation/20090729172813&sec=nation
One of the easiest way to have a DNA trace is through blood samples. In this case, I suspect that blood from the unidentified man was found on TBH’s jacket and belt. There is a high possiblity that there was a struggle and TBH’s killer was bruised and injured, so was TBH.
The two who declined to have their DNA samples taken are natural suspects.
sad reference case here?? http://darisungaiderhaka.blogspot.com/2009/07/kepala-meletup-jatuh-tingkat-16.html
INQUEST – Tan tells inquest DNA report reveals one other unknown male’s DNA found on Teoh’s clothes.
from http://twitter.com/insider_latest/
INQUEST – Magistrate postpones Teoh inquest to Aug 5, will decide whether witness statements shared with lawyers before witness testimonies.16 minutes ago from TwitterBerry
http://twitter.com/insider_latest/
http://darisungaiderhaka.blogspot.com/2009/07/kepala-meletup-jatuh-tingkat-16.html
Interesting observation.
According to the writer & based on the news report in Harian Metro, the victim’s head was totally smashed & blood+grey matter splashed up to the 2nd Floor.
This victim of case No 2 fell from 16th floor to ground floor(?) of Angkasa. His travelling velocity at impact is about 110 km/hr. TBH’s about 83 km/hr.
So can anyone enlighten me as to how this contribute anything to trying to piece the puzzle? So yes according to you, he may be travelling 83km/hr, but I think at that speed, we should still see blood+grey matter, regardless.
Enough with the physic calculation already?! Or else why do some real life CSI still conduct real life test simulation instead of just doing mathematics at home?
Besides, it’s not hard to see how high 9 floors is and we really do not need to know the math to know that people can died from this height.
Come on, just present some facts in numerical terms for quantitative and relative comparisons. If it is of no relevance to you , so be it.I respect your rights and you are entitled to your opinion.That is not my problem.
However,please respect my rights to present what facts or points which I feel is relevant at this forum.
Whether these are irrelevant facts/points or not, you may put it in factual and rational presentation to convince readers here the irrelevancy.
After having done that,then RESPECT the rights of all other readers’ here to determine for themselves as to the relevancy of whatever facts/points/opinions presented here.
Graduate
well said
Thanks for your understanding Dr.
You don’t seem to get the point. The more we divert from the original topic, the more this discussion seem to move away from it’s actual intention. …….Anyway, I would appreciate it if you could at least elaborate what the numbers actually represents than leaving us hanging with multiple question marks on our heads. Or else it just feels like spam.
Doc,
The plants seems to have been ‘watered’ on the same day i.e. 16th July.
Was this ‘evidence’ discussed/covered in your earlier postings/threads?
Umno/BN component parties and their cronies/EC/MACC/PDRM – No. 1 liar and public enemy, bunch of corrupted, despicable, racist morons rotten to the core!
The initial postmortem report revealed that Teoh Beng Hock was murdered by MACC.
(1) He was pronouced dead at around 8 to 9 am. But MACC claimed they only heard a big sound at 1.30 pm and then found his body.
(2) His handphone is not with his body. Teoh was either still under the custody of MACC or someone removed the phone from his dead body.
(3) The latch of window in leval 14 where MACC office is located found at the floor of level 5.
(4) The body is not facing down unlike normal suicide from tall building. This pointed to he was already dead when he was falling down.
(5) The blood stain is abnormal little. This is another sign to show that he already dead before falling down.
(6) His pants were torn. His pants incidentally hooked to window latch before his body was forced out.
(7) The timber door at MACC main entrance was shut down from 1.15 to 1.50 pm. This 45 minutes duration is mostly the body was pushed out.
From these initial findings, my conclusion is he was murdered inside the office at 8 – 9 am before his dead body was threw out from level 14 at 1.30 pm.
Defenestration Malaysian Style : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGQ3BHfaaAs&feature=channel_page
Yet another polis lock-up reported today.
From Malaysiakini…
#
Detainee dead, family suspects foul play
Andrew Ong | Jul 28, 09 5:05pm
# UPDATED 6.50PM The family of a 31-year-old man who died in custody claim that the death was suspicious and want an inquest. [VIDEO INSIDE]MORE
#
‘Witnesses’ saw assault
No autopsy report yet
All the spins and lies begins….
Total of 77 people, including 28 MACC officers, will be called for the inquest into Teoh Beng Hock death starting Wednesday.
From MT:
“A day before heading into what is set to be Malaysia’s most-watched inquest in a long while, police are refusing to classify the suspicious death of Selangor political officer Teoh Beng Hock as anything other “sudden death”.
Although the pressure has forced Khalid and his men to conduct a more in-depth probe, friends and members of Beng Hock’s family have complained that during questioning, they also tried to fish out information that could be twisted to show that Beng Hock was under personal stress and could have jumped.
No wonder then that police ended up questioning far more friends and relatives rather than MACC officials.”
…..so people, you know what to expect from official findings and from the inquest. No surprises.
Is Teoh a witness or a suspect?
Read http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/109427
From the pics, looks like someone have checked / removed something from his left pocket ( jacket ). By doing this, the
crime scene somehow gets distorted.
Its impossible for the pocket inner lining to be exposed
from a fall.
OR
Teoh / someone emptied his pocket before exiting / pushed from the window ?
What was inside his jacket pocket ?
Hi all,
in my quest to identify/clarify the light metallic watch/bracelet looking object located beside his body whether it could be his watch or not, I’ve been searching for references on his watch and this what I could come up with:
1. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ApKbfVXOi8g/SmKvMbpZqrI/AAAAAAAAAW8/q8w5fw7rfjM/s1600-h/01.jpg (metallic watch seen on left wrist)
2. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ApKbfVXOi8g/SmKvMFemr8I/AAAAAAAAAW0/-PF9BSOUwms/s1600-h/02.JPG (no watch on left wrist)
3. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ApKbfVXOi8g/SmKrw2qiEMI/AAAAAAAAAVk/ZSU36zzqSIk/s1600-h/DSCN5982.JPG (metallic watch seen on left wrist – best shot!)
4. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ApKbfVXOi8g/SmKrwp8R7gI/AAAAAAAAAVc/Gy2qGFXfSQM/s1600-h/IMG_1006.JPG (Watch on left wrist).
Conclusions:
(probably can ask his sister or fiancee) to further confirm?
- He appears to be not wearing his watch all the time(please don’t kill me over this comment, it’s just an observation and no implication in any way!);
- The watch he’s seen wearing in the pictures when he was still alive, appears to be similar (at least part thereof) to the shiny object lying beside the body on 5th floor;
- Based on the watch strap link patterns of his watch strap (as worn in the photos when alive, especially photo no.3 – DSCN5982.JPG), it appears consistent with the watch strap link patterns on the “shiny object” beside the body;
- I cannot see any evidence to suggest (not even a wild guess) that there is a “Charlie Chaplin” pattern on the watch bracelet (unless you are referring other than the silent movie/black-and-white comedian with black hat, moustache and stick!) as the pattern is too obscure to me, even under the magnifier);
- If I assume it’s indeed his watch, I’d expect to see the watch piece(ie.the round piece which tells the time) to be significant larger on the strap but I can hardly see any significant round piece however I can see the “buttons”/dials sticking out from around the middle of the watch strap so I guess the picture isn’t clear enough or the “alive” photos show him wearing his watch from a different angle….?
- Hope this helps to clarify the “mystery” over his watch/bracelet (I can conclude it’s not a bracelet but should be his watch, though there might be some part missing from the watch strap, especially on the left side which seems shorter to the middle then the right side of the strap).
- As a next step, would it be of significance/need or any good idea to identify the make of his watch?
- According to my knowledge, there are two types of watches:
1.The watch strap in 1-piece which is connected and is opened/closed via folding and “lock”; When this type of watch strap is opened, it will appear like a ring, not straight.
2.The watch strap in 2-pieces with a “Clip” to lock. When this type of watch strap is opened, it will apear like a bracelet (ie.straight).
CP,
I have a picture of Teoh taken when he was walking out of Selangor Gov. with MACC officers. I can’t remember which website i got it from. His left hand not very clear in the picture but looks like he is not wearing a watch at that time.
To CP
Just compared your pic posted(best shot)with TBH.jpg 3.by drrafick above.
Confirmed…it is a watch.
Left end of pic-Glass facing upwards. Mid to end at right -metallic strap links type.
Links design same as observed in 3rd post (DSCN5982.JPG).
Only problem – difficult to see the hand dials of watch to determine the actual time.
Keep them rolling, Guys !
**For Drrafick.
Check your gmail pls.
CP / drrafcik
Double checked again.
First link of pic 01.jpg showing Late Teoh wearing watch at function (Deepavali?)
just to the right cheek of Ean.
Notice the gold looking design on links near watch? ..maybe that was viewed as “Charlie Chaplin” character.
Hope this put to rest on identity of the “shiny” object.
Hi CP,
From the 4 pictures you provided, it’s difficult to tell whether the watch he’s wearing was the same watch in each pic. Anyway, I notice that TBH liked to wear big sports watch with stainless steel bracelet. Sports watch is usually fix with the ‘folding’ type double lock clasp.
The pattern of the bracelet’s links at the crime scene looks similar with the one in your pic 5982.jpg. My opinion is that the watch has completely detached from the bracelet. What we see in the photo of the crime scene is only the bracelet without the watch piece. The watch piece could have rolled off to a distance away or under the body.
If you look carefully of the direction of the watch strap ‘C’-shape link patterns, the watch should be attached to the end of the bracelet and not in the center. The center of that bracelet is actually the lock. The length of the bracelet is about 150mm to 160mm (stretch out). The 25mm width (measurement by ‘graduate’) is suitable for the big sports watch that TBH wore.
Now the question is, did the watch break off on impact or did it got hook on to something at the start of the fall?
Oh yea, forgot to mention that the underneath of the bracelet is facing up and the longish white square in the middle of the bracelet is the ‘folding’ part of the clasp.
The other photos with the tag no. 2 shows that the bracelet was folded at the end towards the body. That caused the shadow that looks like Charlie Chaplin image.
The photo with tag no. 3, the investigators had moved the bracelet and unfold it.
i agree he died before the fall. if he was thrown out alive, he would have kicked, held on to the latch and screamed etc and on the way down he would have screamed his heart out thus he would have been heard even at 6am. The only way to shut him up would have been to stuff something into his mouth and if so, there should be some cloth etc there.
I still agree that he was dead before the fall unless you can find evidence that his mouth was taped or stuffed with some object.
That’s debatable. For one I believe he was threaten by the *ahem culprits, two guys I believe was involved as it takes two to hold his body half-way out the window which then somehow got out of control and you know the rest. If your body was already half way across there will be nothing to grab on (except possible the window latch), they will grab his pants to prevent him from falling, but failed, pants torned and out he went. The MACC guys said 3.45am, too precise if you ask me and the fact that the handphone was not returned. I speculate that the incident may have happened before then and the officer just saying that to make it look like it’s outside their jurisdiction of Teoh’s being their responsibility. So based on that, even if he screamed, I doubt anybody would pay much attention this early in the morning. Even if someone noticed, according to local’s nature, do you think they will bother to show up as witnesses considering it may involve high ranking people who may make them ‘disappear’ like Bala aside from opposition members?
My previous comments posted is not to underestimate or contradict fellow ‘CSI’ investigators and I feel it’s great to be involved in trying to solve the mystery surrounding the cause and reason of death. Keep on trying…….Cheers!
Doc,
It seems that the way things are going, TBH is gonna be another statistic. The only issue which bothers me is that when LKS offered to employ the services or Dr. Death (Thai Lady coroner), why did the family refused? Didn’t they too want to know the outcome of how the son died and why? Maybe a ‘certain amount of condolence money’ was offered to help ‘cover’ the funeral expenses and also the facts relating to the death. Or maybe the parents doesn’t want the body to be opened and restitched again for the second time. Maybe the mentality of the Chinese is that it is not in line with customary rites and that they want the funeral to be over with asap.
I personally feel if the services of the Thai Lady had been secured, it would bring an end to the speculation and the perpetrators would be peeing in their pants. My other opinion is that TBH had been ‘rendered’ unconscious and ‘helped’ out of the window to enact his ‘suicide’. But then, it wasn’t ‘professionally’ done.
The amount of blood oozing out of a ‘live’ suicide victim compared to a ‘dead one’ doesn’t justify as I beleive the heart rate would be pretty fast due to the adrenaline and would take some time to stop upon impact. Obviously, the amount of blood expelled would be much more compared to what is dispalyed in the attached pictures. Upon impact, the heart would continue to beat and eventually slow down until it stops. During that time, I think internal bleeding and bleeding from wounds sustained on impact would be oozing like crazy.
What do you think, Doc?
Dear Taipan
I am replying away from home due to work.
I believe the family refuses any further PM because of religious sensitivities related to their needs to bury their dead quickly I do not think there is any conspiracy there.
Many feels that the this Thai lady can come out with a different conclusion if she has been invited but is that really the case? Officially the police has not come out with any explanation so far.
Bringing a foreign doctor into Malaysia to work on a case here may need the approval of Malaysian Medical Council which may takes time and may have further delay.
1. The Sun reports that Police have wrapped up an investigation into the deah of TBH and will submit their report to an inquest into the case on Wednesday. They are now ‘tying loose ends’. http://www.sun2surf.com/article.cfm?id=36239
2. Two personal assistants gave their statements to the police this afternoon reported Malaysian Insider. http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/33501-police-record-statements-from-ean-yongs-personal-assistants-
3. Meanwhile Rocky Bru is wildly spinning over at the Malay Mail over a boo-boo made in the police report by Ronnie Liu’s special assistant. http://www.mmail.com.my/content/9133-battle-cyberspace-police-report-%E2%80%98-error%E2%80%99
All these developments together with the insidious T4TBH blog that suddenly sprung do not bode well. I feel somehow that both Ean Yong and Ronnie Liu will be linked or targetted to divert attention from the real murderers.
I presume that the left foot shoe came off while he was pushed down and left at the 14th floor. Someone then thrown that shoe separately but bounced off a distant from the body. This is another clue that suggest TBH did not jump himself but someone was/were present at that time.
The shoe was damaged. This could only occur if the foot and shoe impacted the floor. The impact bounced the foot up which most likely flung the shoe into the air and landed where it was.
I found it interesting that even such an attempt to discover the truth we have posters, not necessarily meaning you, who tried to add noise to the discussion.
Evidences can never be taken individually. It has to be taken as a whole. A valid theory is one that have all the pieces(facts – not speculation) fitted together. Any kink would suggest deficiency in the theory. The theory has to be modified or abandoned entirely.
Basic principles of any investigation – scientific or otherwise ;
“An absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence”.
All investigators worth their salt understood this principle. As an example the absence of splatter blood does not mean that there were no splatter blood. It could just as well meant that the evidences gathered were incomplete.
In a public exercise such as this where in all likelihood there are people out to offer misinformation or counter valid information (disinformation) we have to be careful in our assessment. We need to filter out the fluff and consistently try to fit the facts that we know.
I believe that semuaok is a mis-informer and dis-informer. If so he is not playing the devil’s advocate – very important in any investigation – but the devil himself.
The role of devil’s advocate is important in assessing the theory. Most good investigators play it themself or get an assistance to do it. Such sceptism is healthy for we are not bounded and impeded by our pet theory. But to deliberately misinform or disinform to subvert the truth is haram in islam and not right.
Dr,
it’s me. May i ask if this is right, that at any crime scene, we aren’t allow to simply touch/move the evidences. Why is TBH’s watch in a different position? – based on your photo here in this blog, and the first photo of Zorro-unmasked (17th July). The polices moved it while they placed their markings?
Dear Drrafick
picture 4, when zoomed in seems to indicate a watch showing time at 7.00. My photoshop version 5 (a pretty old version) do not have the necessary plugin for image enhancement hence could not do justice to the picture. Anyone out there with fractal based image enhancement software? This software may just do the trick.
This is indeed great news… Anyone aroumd the world can help?
Doc R via blackberry….
hi dr rafick… why you stopped your csi findings? i’m very eager to wait for another one article from you abt TBH death. I wanna know where does this thing ends. by the way .. its been 3 days i ‘m waiting.. i mean all of us are waiting.
How old are you DR. rafick? let me guess 40 something to 50 something…
Sorry to disapoint you.. I am travelling on a working trip to brunei
Doc R via blackberry….
Dr & all the other Bloggers,
U ur all doing a great CSI job … I’m proud of having a privi…to ur opinions.
Graduate thank for the “…..” Adios
Dr,
First you said the latch that tear the pant and now it’s the fall that split the pant.
Second When I mention shadow underneath the buttock and left knee, You try to explain the bloodstain on the pant and the blood beneath the skin.
Thirdly When I said the picture is doctored. Your answer in bold letter “The picture HAS NOT BEEN doctored.”
And when I bring to your attention. Your answer “I did not black out that portion”.
Doctor you win I surrender.
Dear Semuaok
I still maintain that the jagged torn pants were due to pants being stuck to the broken latch and his weight actually tear the pants. I have never said that it is due to the fall.
I am merely trying to explain your queries on the shadows.
I am surprised that you said that the picture has been doctored. That phrase has got a specific meaning. Which part has been doctored? The blackened part was probably done by KOSMO and I obtain the picture from a reader.
Trust this clarifies. In the quest of finding the truth and satisfactory explanation here, there are no winner or losers. We are not competing but merely sharing views from different angle.
When millions of people contribute ideas and exchange them based on their knowledge and expertise, I believe we would be closer to the truth.
Just to conclude: I believe
a.TBH died in custody
b. His body was thrown down from the 14th floor to cover up the death in custody and to make it look like a suicide bid
c. He died about 20-30 minutes before being thrown out of the window
d. The actual time the body exited the window is estimated about 600-700am
Thank you for your input. Keep in touch. I honestly appreciate all the assistance and input by all the readers.
Dr. Rafick, I totally agree with you. The excellent work and analysis done so far is a noble effort on your part as well and concerned readers. It has but one objective i.e. TO FIND THE TRUTH about what happened to TBH and to bring to justice, the perpetrators of a heinous crime. This is NOT a race to see who is the smartest CSI investigator or who is right or wrong nor about winning or losing. I think someone miss the whole point of the exercise. I know for sure that even among real life forensic experts working in every country, that there are difference of opinions and views about cases and surely this is something to be expected. Again I reiterate that all views and opinions are welcomed and highly respected. No one will be shot down. It is only through a process of brainstorming, analysis, reflection and elimination would we come to the final truth.
dr,
your findings …. “He died about 20-30 minutes before being thrown out of the window”
- from your observation, how many pints of blood ( wet n dried) on the floor… can you estimate ?
——————————————————————————
if Teoh was still alive ( not injured ) and conscious when he exited the window, how many pints of blood will there be on the floor if he had landed in the same position.
—————————————————————————
if he was un-conscious .. .. due to sleeping pills or something.. but no injuries …. when he exited the window…. how many pints of blood ?
—————————————————————————-
if he got bashed up extremely…still alive but ” nyawa-nyawa ikan ” then thrown out window… then how many pints of blood ?
That is very difficult to est based on 2D image. There seems to be a quite a wide area of peefusion over the buttock area based on the latest picturrs sent to me.
Doc R via blackberry….
HEY sam ,
How many pints of blood you have in your body?
hahaha
Hello SemuaOk.
Your para 3..Kosmo pic or image doctored ( you did not state by whom).
Drrafick responded pic Has Not been doctored (by him)- he assumed you referred to him for doctoring the Kosmo pic image.
Visited Kosmo homepage this morning and searched.Said pic was published 17Jul 09 on Front page (Same pic as posted by drrafick).
If any doctoring was done, it’s at Kosmo’s end.
(Kosmo is part of Utusan Malaysia Group – google search for it)
Remember, guys, relevant inputs for the CSI efforts rather off_track comments.
Seems like a good and intelligent bunch of rationale people at this blog. Try to pool your resources and for starters, look at below :
1. Kindly visit Zorrro Unmasked blog. 17July09. 4 pics in a strip was posted. Examine closely..Tell tale clues are there but nobody had observed them so far:
2. 1st pic at top – looked like a clear plastic bag on top of a crumbled Black PLASTIC SHEET( low quality).
Forensic BODY BAG is Heavy duty and folded line still visible (see last bottom pic)
3. What are the Bricks (around the body)doing there ?? Is it to hold down the Black Plastic Sheet that was used to cover up the body from sight ??
…Until the janitor went on his round and found the body ?
Note:Polis forensic team brought along the Bricks ?..Don’t be ridiclous..Bricks are not part of their hardware inventory.
Just food for thought. Clues are inadvertedly given away by flimsy statements made to the media by those “INTELLIGENT” parties.
Remember those press statements ” we have a theory and working towards it “, “investigations is 60% completed”,”blah,blah,blah ”
Where in the world do you hear such stuff ?!!! Its either still in progress or completed. Completed by percentage??? Figure out what that means…
OK, enough for now. and don’t forget the disclaimer by our drrafick about margin of errors in his write up.
Dear Ale
Thank you for the info on the pictures on zorro website. This is the first time that i saw a “similar but different pics” probably taken at a different time frame. I want to highlight a few observation
(1) I did not see the white plastic. maybe you can copy the pic, mark X and email me at drrafick@gmail.com
(2) Clearly now based on the zorro photograph there is 2 different black plastic cover on site. There is a thin, crumpled one and the one bought in by the police which has a clear and well define folds.
(3) Who brought this thin plastic cover? Probably the same person who brought the bricks and I agree with you it was not brought in by the police. It was probably use by them when they cover the body with their on sheet.
Will write more about this soon. Thank you for the tip.
p/s – do you know where i can get the original pics.
Dr.,
I truely appreciate ur relentless efforts on solving TBH’s mystery of death, while certain vested parties r trying to divert public attentions onto other matters, such as the T4TBH’s allegations…
Bravo dr.Rafick, Keep ur good works up!
Maybe they can help if you send the images to them…
http://www.mitre.org/news/digest/advanced_research/07_09/surveillance.html
Blurred Images Bring Surveillance into Sharper Focus
drrafick,
Even if we put all the evidence on the table, the government will cover up this murder.
If this evil government can use its power to vilify a dead man, if will do anything to achieve its goal.
NOT a single MACC officer has been arrested or even remanded for questioning. What other proof do we want?
Newspapers have been ordered to play up an anonymous UMNO blog to tarnish Teoh and DAP leaders. The RCI wants to look at procedures. The Inquest will conclude death by suicide.
The evidence that is staring in our face is that a mega cover up sanctioned by the government in underway.
When this issue is untenable,Umno is waiting for the right timing to:
1 )Put Saudara DSAI into lockup,
2 )If still not effective enough, ISA’ed PR leaders/members and maybe people like Dr Rafick/Tee Kiat for not toeing Umno etc,
3 )All over the country …hoo haa…. hoo haa with protests and demos,
4 )Finally , all Malaysians forget about TBH issues.
Hi Dr. Rafick,
Thank you for your simple to follow coverage on TBH’s unfortunate death.
Based on info mainly found in the internet, I strongly believe that TBH was already dead and his body thrown down from a high floor to make it appear he committed suicide.
I sincerely hope TBH’s restless spirit will rise and become so powerful to wreak havoc with his murderers.
Drrafick
Your last picture is heavily doctored and should be remove.
Hi semuaok
The picture HAS NOT BEEN doctored. I have labeled in in various places for easy reference. You can download the ppt pictures and edit the labels for a fresh look.
Dr you need to do a better job. Hint: Why the need of a black out at Kosmo? Look at the shadow and see how it was cut by the black out. Can you see the black patch it’s almost even everywhere especially on the buttock and left knee. And on certain area it’s darker on the outer part. Does the shadow make sense to you?
FYI: The 3′ imprint is shaped like a U. No one is going to make a drainage like you said to one side of the imprint.
semuaok
a. I did not black out that portion. I receive it as such.
b. It is not shadows but different level of severity of hematoma. The darker ones indicate heavy bleeding under the skin and the lighter ones indicate less bleeding.
c. Dont quite understand what you mean on the last line.
Hi Semuaok,
Cool it……..take it easy .
Semuoak,
I think both you and Dr. Rafick have the same objective i.e. to find the truth so that the killer/killers may be brought to justice and that the MSMs do not bullshit the public with their rotten suicide theory. The only difference I see is that both of you have different schools of thought. I think Dr. Rafick has done an excellent job based on his military medic experience so I sicerely feel we should respect each other’s opinion and not impose our views on anyone.
dr drafick,
I totally agree with what the reporter said, a piece of vital information that can prove tbh did not commit suicide was almost totally blocked from publicising
ne evening news reported on 20th july that according to the police findings, a latch from the 14th floor window was held in tbh’s hand when his body was found on the 5th floor. By examing his right hand closely, you can see that it is not close like a fist because u r not suppose to see his finger nails if it is., instead it is like holding an object. That also explain why that is a laceration at the base of his hand, it must have been caused by the jagged edged of the handle(latch) during the impact.
Lets play up the murder scene in our mind : two men carry teoh to the opened window,put his feet out first and trying to eject him from there but he is not going to give up his life without a fight, that is natural, so he held on to the men tightly by wrapippng his arms around their neck, he tried not to let his body slide down by using the window sill as his last line of defence. With his bum firmly on the window sill, he retracted his legs and at one point he did managed to put his feet on the window sill and with a hard push, his bum actually slide in abit, that explain the vertical torn on his pants. Now the men were angry, they want to untangle his arms deny him of any grip he has on them, during the scuffle his body moved from right to left and left to right, that explains the wide horizontal torn on his pants,and one of his shoes might have come off at that point.
alas he is overpowed by them and he knows now he is facing the plunge. As the men give him a final push on his back, he try to hang on to the final second of his life by grabing the handle of the window in front of him with his right hand.That explains why he landed on his right side, his weight was on the right when he fell.
Teoh Beng Hock died as a hero, even when he was threaten to the brink of death, he did not want to compromise on his principle. We may not find another Teoh Beng Hock but we can uphold his principle i.e Truth Prevails.
Lets insist on finding the truth and reject all the twisted stories.
In order to do a cover-up, I think the investigating party will NOT look for Attackers’ tissues on TBH’s body/finger etc by conducting relevant DNA tests.
Thanks Dr Rafick for your focused coverage along CSI lines — I’m impressed by thy supreme efforts. For those who have yet to watch CSI,tune in to Astro AXN Sunday from 9pm — THREE 1hr-episodes till midnight; No, I don’t get any commission for PR-ing this!:(
I salute too te contributions from several Commenters here — Dannis Ng’s AC copied here by Azhar from M2day is worth consideration and further exploring. Kudos to all, YL
Teoh’s Wristwatch.
I have not read any official comments on Teoh’s watch. The issue of Teoh’s wristwatch arise after three pictures was published in Part V. In one of the three pictures, the shinning object was labeled a ‘WATCH’. The ‘shinning object’ may not relate to Teoh and could be a foreign object.
We know that Teoh’s handphone, a Sony Ericcson P1, wallet and backpack was in the possession of an MACC Investigating Officer. Teoh may or may not wear a wristwatch. The fact that all personal movable belongings of Teoh was in the possession of the I.O. suggest that Teoh was treated as a SUSPECT i.e. he has to check-in all those items to the I.O. The conclusion is corroborated by the marathon interrogation session Teoh has endured. The two pathologists may find ‘kopi-O’ and ‘karipap’ in Teoh’s stomach if Teoh was MACC’s ‘Star Witness’.
Teoh’s Shoes.
From Malaysiakini we read;
“Lim also said that the police had asked Teoh’s fiancee one ‘interesting question’, whether he changed his shoes everyday.
This is in relation to the investigating officer’s revelation that Teoh’s shoes LOOKED IN SHREDS when his body was found.
“They asked if Teoh owned many shoes and what size he wore…the fiancee said that Teoh had several pairs and seldom changed them unless they were damaged, but on that fateful day, he wore a NEW pair,” said Lim”.
Teoh’s left shoe was found about eight feet to his left, upright and still laced. The latest picture posted by drrafick is interesting. The shoe’s sole looked ‘scrapped’. The rubber sole looked scrapped and exposed the base of the shoe. The heel of the shoe looked similar. Bloody hell, where did Teoh go? Do they make you take off your shoe during interrogation/questioning?
http://www.mmail.com.my/content/8655-teoh-death-more-questions-answers
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/109077
http://shambatutiga.blogspot.com/2009/07/esok-nak-kawin-hari-ini-bunuh-diri.html
I believe that this was what happened based on photographic evidences so far presented.
I believed, on the force of the evidences, he held on to the window before his fall. As there is hardly any foot hold someone else must have held him up. As he was let go he tried to turn. The direction of the turn suggested that he was a right-handed. As he fell backward with a slight twist to his right he landed on his right butt, hit his head and slumped in a L shape. The point of impact is most likely the right butt where the huge hematoma was found. The force of the impact caused his pants to “explode” outwards due to the pressure exerted on his right butt. This explained the jagged edges. The hematoma could exist only if Teoh was alive upon impact. It also explained the lack of blood and splatter as most of the energy from the fall was absorbed by the “exploding” pant at the point of impact.
His left shoe been thrown a distance away could be explained by his attempt at turning his body in mid-fall.
The laceration on his palms and mount of his palm is not due to any cut but bruises from climbing out of the window. The marks caused is consistent with a right-handed person climbing out of the window – first a horizontal mark where the palm is aligned along the window sill. When he is on the other side the mark is parallel to his wrist. There should be some similar marks on the left hand. The bruises could also suggest that he held on for some time. This is very likely as there is no foot hold.
The distance from face of the window to the point of impact – assuming is the butt would be around 6′ to 8′.
6′ = 1.828 m. 8′ = 2.438 m
Height of fall assume to be 9 storey x 3 m = 27 m
time of fall = 5.51 s
initial horizontal velocity = 0.331 m/s (6′ horizontal distance) or 0.442 m/s (8′ horizontal distance)
The existence of a horizontal velocity has great implication.
As there is no foot hold it is quite unlikely that he could push himself off. This means if he had committed suicide he would have to fall straight down.
The final posture suggested he fell backwards this could only meant that he climb out of the window with great care to prevent falling.
The existence of this horizontal velocity is suggestive of the scenario where he was pushed.
Wounds caused by a fall could mask the wounds caused by impact of a high speed moving object such as a fist.
This scenario does explained most, if not all the photographic evidences presented. So I believe that Teoh was still alive when he fell. I do not believe that he committed suicide as to climb out on to the ledge requires a person with very good upper body strength. Teoh doesn’t seem to have that capacity.
The question that remain to be answered is why he climbed out of the window and who gave him the push.
****** Dr.Rafick’s disclaimer applies. ***********
My mistake – I forgot to take a square root. The time of fall is 2.35sec. This meant that the horizontal velocity is 0.778 m/s(for 6′ horizontal) or 1.037 m/s.
From this 2 velocity and teoh’s body weight we could estimate the force used to push him out. The duration of the push will have to be determined empirically.
F = teoh’s body mass x ( velocity above) / duration of push determined empirically.
Morning Dew,
My humble workings are as follows:
u = initial velocity in m/s;
v = final velocity in m/s;
t = time in seconds;
s = displacement in metres.
Note:Distance is scalar quantity and displacement is vector quantity,in layman terms there are the same.
Using formula
displacement = average velocity x time interval
s in metres = (v+u) /2 in m/s x time of 2.3456 sec
In your case ,using initial horizontal velocity u of 0.778 m/s at 14th floor ,and final horizontal velocity at 5th floor v is assumed 0 m/s >>
s in metres = 0.778/2 in m/s x 2.3456 sec
= 0.91 metres x 3.28 feet per metre
= 3 feet
Therefore,
For s =6 feet(1.83 m), initial u =1.56 m/s (5.6 km/hr);
For s =8 feet(2.44 m), initial u = 2.08 m/s (7.5 km/hr)
Hope this helps.
Hi graduate
my physics is very rusty.. can you explain in simple english
I can’t follow you,Dr.What do you mean by simple English?
Dear graduate
You presented a lot of calculations. Can you explain in simple term the importance of this calculation in relation to the incident.
Dr,
It is velocities, or in layman terms is speed and its consequential impact on the body.
For 9 floor fall, TBH’s vertical velocity is 83 km/hr at impact. This can be simulated by somebody standing on top a tall vehicle travelling at a constant speed of 83 km/hr through a concrete tunnel or overhead and being impacted.
I suspect the photos do not show this kind of impact.
However, the impact may reflect fall from lower floor such as 9th floor etc.
As pointed by Morning Dew, in horizontal direction, my calculation is erroneous and is 2 times the actual.Hence all my comments basing on horizontal velocity are not true too.
Thanks.
That is definitely clearer..
Doc R via blackberry….
Graduate,
The threading is only 2 level deep so I can’t reply to your post.
You had made a fundamental error in your calculation.
You had assumed that V(0.778 m/s) reaches u(0 m/s) in time t(2.35 sec). This would suggest a deceleration exist – something which is not correct in calculating projectiles.
It would be correct if v = u = 0.778 m/s and u is brought to 0 by an indeterminate impulse time- it is like slamming into a concrete wall and all energy gets dissipated.
Morning Dew,
You have a point.
I couldn’t account for the deceleration of 0.33 m per second square, assuming TBH’s mass as 60 kg, the horizontal Force F during TBH’s fall is 19.9 Newtons or equivalent to 2 kiogram-force.
I think the air resistance and wind force may not explained this horizontal force of 2 kilogram-force.
All my previous calculations of horizontal velocities are 2 times the actual.
However , the vertical velocity calculations still hold.That is 23 m/s at impact at 5 th floor.
Thank you for pointing out this discrepancy.
Morning Dew,
F = TBH’s body mass x (velocity for 8 feet travel) /duration of push determined empirically
TBH’s body mass assumed = 60 kg;
Horizontal velocity for 8 feet displacement = 1.037 m/s;
Assuming the window is opened up to ,say 600 mm wide.
Also assuming 200 mm distance travelis requires for effective push to achieve a final horizontal velocity of 1.037 m/s.
Imagine the scenario during theduration of push from 0 velocity to 1.037 m/s :
Distance travelled = averge velocity x time duration
0.2 m = 1.037 / 2 m/s x time duration in seconds
0.2 m = 0.5185 m/s x time duration in seconds
Therefore time duration = 0.2 m / 0.5185 m/s
= 0.3857 sec or 386 miliseconds
Horizontal Force in Newtons = [Mass of 60 kg x change in horizontal velocity of 1.037 m/s divide by time duratiion of 0.3857 sec]
Horizontal Force = 161 newtons divide by 9.81 newton force per 1 kg force
Horizontal Force = 16.4 kg force.
If 100 mm distance travelled is sufficient to achieve a horizontal velocity of 1.037 m/s, then the horizontal force required is 32.8 kg force or 322 newtons
Hi graduate,
Your assumption is not correct. The impulse force time of action has to be ascertained empirically. A high speed camera would be able to measure the impulse time. There is a easier way to set up the experiment but this is not within the realm of thought experiment here.
What is important is that there was a horizontal velocity which is suggestive of a force by someone. Teoh’s last moment was probably having his hand straight to lift up his body by pressing on the window sill. The laceration on his right hand is suggestive of this theory. As with all theories it has credibility if it can predict. If this theory is correct then his left hand would have similar lacerations.
Morning Dew,
Impulse is defined as a product of a Force F acting on an object of Mass m for the Time t
Impulse (N s) = F in Newton x Time in second;
Newton’s Second Law of Motion states:
Force in Newton = Mass in kg x acceleration in m/sec square
i.e 1 N = 1 kg x 1 m /sec square;
Now, F = m x a
= m x (v-u) / t , where a = (v-u) / t
= (mv – mu) / t
Ft= mv – mu which means change in momentuml
Impulse = Ft = change in momentum , units in kg m/s.
When TBH was pushed horizontally , there is a change of momentum on TBH’s body of ,say, 60 kg from initial velocity u of 0 m/s to a final horizontal velocity v of ,say, 1.037 m/s for 8 feet displacement on 5th floor.
Impulse F t on TBH= 60 kg x 1.037 m/s
= 62.22 kg m / s or N s
( 1 kg force = 9.81 Newtons )
When Force on TBH = 16.4 kgf, then Time t = 0.386 s
When Force on TBH = 32.8 kgf, then Time t = 0.193 s
When Force on TBH = 65.6 kgf, then Time t = 0.096 s
When Force on TBH = 121.2kgf, then Time t = 0.048 s
When Force on TBH = 242.4kgf, then Time t = 0.024 s
Note:I assume various s of 200mm , 100 mm etc for the purpose to deducing permutations of F and T above.
Of course we don’t know what was the actual force being applied on TBH for I am not keen( or rather all of us including police or pathologists would never never know the true situations) to know the time of impulse.
I am trying to show TBH’s fall from 14th floor is possible whereby 1 or 2 officers of certain built could push TBH at any force in the range shown above to achieve a horizontal displacement of 8 feet on 5th floor.
In other words,TBH’s fall on 5th floor at 8 feet horizontal displacement is kinetically possible where a push of impulsive force as little as 16.4 kgf over 200 mm travel would be sufficient.
Previously , I was taking the position that TBH could not be exited from 14 th floor where horizontal displacement is more than 20 feet bla bla bla
An impulse force is not defined as Ft, just as V is not defined as IxR, but as a force that acts for a very short time. A push or a tug or a moving object hitting a wall all produced impulsive force.
The reason for the calculation of impulsive force is to ascertain that it is possible to produce the velocity that will allow teoh’s body to traverse the 8 feet.
A better and more accurate approach would be to do an actual simulation.
On other pieces of information :
a. A tear by the window’s latch would produce a straight line tear.
b. An “explosive” tear characterised by the jagged edges can only be explained by the pressure generated from the impact.
c. The large hematoma seen in the picture could not be a result of repeated beating. It is too large, even and too intense. Look at kugan’s bruises. The hematoma could only occur from the impact of the butt with concrete. If this is true then we could conclude that teoh was still alive on the moment of impact.
d. Teoh’s left leg most probably bounces up when the feet and leg hit the floor. The bounce could have flung the shoe upwards. It would also explain the damage done to the shoe. This explained the fracture of his left leg.
Morning Dew,
Sorry for the slow response, just back from a 3 day outstaton trip.
F = is a force(Its unit is Newton). It is called impulse force or force of impulse or loosely called impulsive force.
t = is the durations of time in seconds. Let me called it impulse time. In engineering or physics ,it can be a billionth of a seconds (nanoseconds); or millionth of a seconds ; or thousandths of a seconds (miliseconds) etc.It can also be 1 seconds or 1 minute etc, depending on a particular case / circumstances of imparting an impulsive force on an statonary object to initiate an motion.
In this TBH’s case,it is in hundreds of miliseconds.Whether it 500 milliseconds ( i.e 0.5 seconds ) or 50 ms, nobody knows.
In my workings, it shows various scenarios of different impulse force at varying impulse time to achieve a similar horizontal velocity of 1.037 m/s on a 60 kg mass.
F multiply by t = Ft is impulse .Its unit is N s(Newton seconds ) .Impulse is also ‘defined’ as change of momentum, its unit would be kg m / s. It is not a force ( whereby its unit is Newton).
Definition from dictionary .com, “”impulse is the product of the average force acting upon a body and the time during which it acts, equivalent to the change in the momentum of the body produced by such a force.”"
Refer item 8 of :http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/impulse
Hope this helps.
Although in this non – engineering forum of discussions; I am likely to confuse the smart and intelligent readers between i)impulse; ii)impulse force; and iii)impulsse time.
However I have consistently said the following:
1 )Impulse force is a force in Newtons. It is F and not Ft.
2 )Impulse is Ft,product of F and t.It is NOT a force.It is not denoted by Ft. Its unit is N s or kg m/ s.
Trust this clarifies.
Sorry, the above statement in Para 2 : “It is not denoted by Ft” should read as “It is denoted by Ft”
I didn’t say Ft is impulse force. I said Ft is impulse.
Hope it clarifies
No one has questioned the existence of the black plastic. Was it put there by investigators or someone after he died or did the killers left it there. If the killers left it there, it’ll lend the theory that he was bundled in the black plastic and dragged there. There is probably blood in the plastic and it flowed out making the so-called ‘L-shape’. The killers may have used more than 1 plastic bag but in their haste left one there. Its an important clue.
justice, the black plastic sheet and bricks was brought to the crime scene by the forensic police.
Wudan, they are NOT…it was already there when the police arrived. The Forensic police only have a very thick, heavy duty type to cover up the body. The ones covering the blood are thin low quality type used by janitors to throw out trash.
Hi Dr. Raffick, I read with interest on all your CSI, thank you for your work, your study was such detailed and researched upon, it definately has shed lights that points out to the late Teoh Beng Hock.
Linked your blogsite to this http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=106191220735&ref=nf
WILL JUSTICE PREVAILS
If I’m not wrong there’s a band of dirt that can be seen on Teoh’s white trousers. This band of dirt somehow does not jive with his fall. Surely in a fall the dirt on his trousers would have been more pronounced than just a band of dirt?
Can you show it to me. I cannot see it
The 1st pix of your part V makes it appear like a band of dirt, but it’s not when I zoomed in.
On zooming, isn’t there blood stains on the barrier wall of the corridor near where his head is?
An eyewitness account; ( JIJI of http://triplecolourlife.blogspot.com/2009/07/setiausaha-politik-exco-selangor-mati.html)
Ye kawan-kawan. Ini kali kedua aku saksikan orang mati bunuh diri. Satu di UPM satu di sini.
Jam 1.30 tgh, aku dan kawan aku dengan makcik cleaner dan pak guards berkumpul.
Aku tinjau laa dari tingkat 8, Plaza Masalam.
Dengan selamba “aku ckp ada orang bunuh diri kot.”
Kami tinjau tingkap belakang tempat duduk aku. Dan kiri bangunan takde.
Okeh fine.
Polis dan forensic tak datang lagi time tuh.
Di sebabkan aku neh terpengaruh sangat-sangat bab ceta detektif neh.
(Ye aku masih baca komik Detektif Conan)
Aku scout around sekeliling opis tu..
Voila!!!@!~
Ni gambar dari Bilik Meeting. Lepas aku terjot gila habis seram sejuk pasal aku tak expect pon nampak dead body kat bawah.
Apa lagi berpusu-pusu laa opismate aku layan drama petang hari.
Gila lambat polis dan pakar Forensic nak sampai.
Takde mcm C.S. I pon.
Selooooowwwwwww ahh drama petang semalam.
(Note : The second picture in jiji’s blog showing a girl extending her arm out with her camera in hand. Her armpit rest on the window ledge. I don’t know how tall she is but we can infer the height of the window ledge to the floor. Notice the window handle is quite a big piece of metal and it is fixed to the centre of the window frame)
wudan
That is really helpful
Doc, just glad to contribute and do my bits.
Dear Wudan
Thank you for photos
Doc, credit should go to Jiji’s blog.
Can somebody upload photo view from 8th floor here a photo showing the distance between the toe of the short outer wall where TBH’s was lying and the toe of the 5th floor (inner)window wall?
I wish to calculate the distance between the two walls.Anyone please?
Dear Semuaok,
Quote:Try imaging standing 1′ behind a window on the 8th floor an look down (you can drawn a triangle) toward the 5 floor. The person has to be atleast 14′ to see 9′ of the balcony below. And if the person is 5′5″ you would need atleast 50′ to see the balcony on the 5 floor. Asuming the bottom of the window is 3′
Can you elaborate further or explain clearly the above statement ?
I am very interested to find out from you how the 20 over feet is arrived at, appreciate your prompt response.
if the late TBH did punch someone in the macc room, then whoever got punched would have a bruise right now – could be on the face, chest, arm, etc. this is anothe clue. so, all the macc officers on duty that fateful night must bare all for the doc to see…
any possibility the pants were cut to make it look like it was caught by the handle? i am sure a cut (by scissor or blade) will look very different than a tear by friction under the microscope. this can be easily simulated using the same fabric with the relative tools & surface at that 5th floor.
it was in the papers that police forensics tried to simulate the dummy to fall from that very same window…and…? nothing to report?
surely, to justify if the window latch could have detached itself with the body hanging onto the latch, surely, it can be simulated. if it does not detach…surely, they can try to act like pushing the dummy (same weight as late TBH) to see if it will detach. this will give an idea how the latch got detached.
moreover, is the window designed to withhold such weight? there would have been some form of strain or stress on the window’s foldable arms…again, the forensics should analyze this. if the entire windows goes with the dummy…enough said.
it is strange that the watch or bracelet being away from the foot. was he wearing anklet? the watch or bracelet at the wrist would have been near the wrist if it had broken apart due to the impact. how did it manage to jump nearly 6ft away from the wrist?
the location of the other shoe is also mysterious.
if the victim had fallen at such a height, again, the impact or indent onto the fabric (due to weight & pressure) would leave a mark on the coat & pants. this would leave some clues to look into. again, the dummy simulation should give the data for analysis.
just my 2 cents worth.
I am just wondering if there is a fire escape staircase within the macc office. If there is, could it be possible for them to move the body by the staircase. just read another theory in MT moment ago.
For them to drag the body down the staircase, it has to be in the wee hours of the morning where there are no people and the janitors and cleaners aren’t around.
I wonder if the police did a forensic on the stairs leading down to the fifth floor for clues.
Dear Dr,
Looks like your CSI series has started a CSI movement among the public and they are only going to gain momentum as it rolls on forward.
Tahniah!
What would CSI have said? PDF Print
Posted by admin MALAYSIA TODAY
Saturday, 25 July 2009 22:57
By Dannis Ng
I do believe TBH’s body was placed there and the rest was made to look like he exited the windows, like everyone believes and exactly what “they” want you to believe.
TBH’s body was too far away from the building, about 20’ from the building. His left leg was at a 90 degree and straight. Only athletes can do that, not someone who was 30 years old and immediately from a fall unless he was face down/up and not on his side.
1) The blood should have formed a pool. Look at the water mark. They are in a circle surrounding the drainpipe in the middle of the 3’ x 3’ imprint. And look on the left side of the 3rd picture. The pool of water is contained in the 3′x3′ imprint. Now look at how the blood flowed. It flowed for about 6′ (3′+3′). It’s too long and impossible to flow that far because the blood would have clotted by then.
2) My observation is that there are 2 patches of blood (or 1 patch in an L shape). One is parallel to the railing and the other is coming out from the mouth/nose. The one parallel doesn’t make sense. It should go towards the middle of the 3′x3′ imprint. It would make sense if the blood went to the left of the picture and at the same time moved toward the middle. Just like the rest of the water especially the pipe, is in the middle of the 3’x 3’ imprint. The other blood that is coming out from the mouth/nose is flowing slowly towards the middle and should not have flowed up to the corner of the imprint. It should begin to go left at the middle of the imprint just like the one parallel to the railing. It defies gravity.
3) Look at the fallen off shoe. It probably came from the direction where I think the body was brought from. 2 persons were carrying the body. The one who carried the legs was leading the one who carried the body. While in a rush, they dropped the shoe on the right and therefore the shoe was closer to the railing.
4) While carrying the body about the time the shoe dropped, the person who carried the torso somehow lowered/dropped his side. Therefore you have the first blood that was parallel to the railing. The 2nd blood stain flowed from the mouth/nose when the body was placed there. Both blood flows started to flow towards the middle of the imprint and the L shape was formed by combining these 2 patches of blood.
5) The body posture looked like he had been seated upright for some time. That would explain why his body was at a 90-degree angle and the legs were straight. Because of rigor mortis, the legs were somehow either pointing upward toward the sky or not touching the floor. One person had to lift the body by his coat to turn his body toward the building and therefore his shirt was lifted and shifted towards his left side. The bottom part on the right side of his shirt was also pushed up. That is consistent with where the body was coming from (coming from left of the picture where the shoe dropped off).
6) Unless his legs were heavier than his body, I would assume the head would go down first if his pants got caught. And if his pants did get caught, how did the body land horizontally even if it was a 9′-12′ drop. I would assume he dropped like a rock. You might say someone pushed him out. Then you have to assume the window would not shut/come down with the weight of the body after it got hooked and the latch broke and the body would continue to move away from the building. I do not believe the window could have been wide open and yet he got caught by the latch. It looks like a catch 20/20 here. To push far, you have to open the window wide. And to open the window wide, the pants would not have caught the latch which was 3’ away and above. And remember when the window is open, the latch should be pointing parallel to the building which makes it harder for the pants to get caught.
7) The torn pants have too big a hole to justify a single latch or contact. The latch was thrown from above to make it look like the pants broke it. I don’t think it’s that easy to tear pants. I would think his pants would have fallen off or it would have come loose a little or his belt would have broken. That was not the case in the picture. The large tear on his pants was due to the moving of the body from the 14th floor to the 5th floor. As I mentioned earlier, the person who carried the torso was either too weak or the body was too heavy. I suggest that TBH was killed much earlier when the body was in a seated position and the legs were along the floor. I suggest that while moving the body, they either dropped the body or scrapped his pants/bottom along the floor/stairs many times. The pounding and friction caused the large tear on his pants.
8) Below have all been mentioned:
a) No sound of impact
b) No one saw the body fall
c) No splash of blood
d) Body is on its side
e) No blood stains on the shirt
f) Body did not look like it had dropped from 9 storeys high
Everything was made to look like TBH jumped/fell from the window. I suspect TBH had been dead for quite some time and the body was at a 90 degree angle because he was in an upright seated position (or placed that way) with his feet on the floor and later he was moved to the 5 floor. From there, rigor set in and that is why his legs were at a 90 degree angle to his body. Because the perpetrators had done it in a rush, they had no time to straighten his body (or did not think to do so) and just threw his body there. Hence TBH’s body was on its side. There was no way they could put the body face-up or his legs/bottom would be pointing at the sky.
This is a very interesting and plausible theory on what happened to TBH. Something struck me about what Dannis said.
“I suggest that while moving the body, they either dropped the body or scrapped his pants/bottom along the floor/stairs many times. The pounding and friction caused the large tear on his pants.”
The above action could have caused the large tear in his pants but more important it could explain the huge hematoma (blood under the skin) on TBH’s right buttocks. So far I could not find a possible reason for the huge hematoma on his buttocks if he had fell.
BTW, Dannis Ng whose article above appeared on MT sounds very much like Semuaok who has made a number of comments on this blog (just my CSI suspicions).
I guess Dannis Ng = semuaok, am I guesssing correctly?
PRESUME HE DIED FIRST THEN PLACED THERE FOR SHOW ONLY !
MAKE STORIES AFTER THAT…
WHAT SAY YOU DR.RAFFICK ?
Dear CSI
(1) My diagnosis is based on the volume of blood suggest he died before landed on the 5th floor roof
(2) I still believe that he was thrown out from the 14th floor to make appears that is a suicide.
what is the height difference between death body and the flower plants ?
The flower plant soil is wet, lots of water. Was it raining on wed/ thurs ?
if someone / gardener needs to water the plants, from which level he/ she needs to do it ?
what time did they water the plants ?
or is it auto water sprinkler ?
or its just a water pipe leak ?
sam,
The flower plants level are below the 5th floor.It is NOT at 5th floor if you look carefully.
Dr. Rafick, I have downloaded, enlarged and enhanced the right hand wound. The laceration appears to be more on the base of the palm rather than the wrist area. I think if one were to commit suicide, cutting the veins around the wrist area would have been more appropriate. Furthermore as you mentioned, it doesn’t add up, blood from the wound is minimal. I think we also have to find out from his fiancee, family or friends whether TBH was left or right handed.
But what doesn’t add up most is why would a person with the intention of committing suicide by cutting his hand followed by jumping from the 14th floor. He could have just jumped, as the death would be quick and painless. This will probably be the first time in my entire life that I heard of someone doing both, if the MSMs are going to spin such a silly theory to absolve parties from liability.
I read somewhere TBH is a right hander.
If he is a right hander than the wound logically will be on the left but from the pics, the wound is on the right.
Look at his right hand holding up all five fingers in the form of ‘fist’.
My interpretation is that , moments prior to his death,he was violentlly attacked with something sharp weapon as evidenced from the lacerations on his right palm .He defended himself by punching his opponents with his right fist.
I believe after he was murdered , his knowledgeable murderers must have attempted to ‘unwrap’ to right fist to erase/eradicate this evidence of fist-fight prior to his death.
I have scaled and measure the ‘watch’ is 25 mm wide by 130 mm long. The long end of the latch is 85 mm. The width of a watch strap is 16 to 18 mm .
So , it is neither a latch nor a watch.
[...] See original here: Death at MACC: My CSI findings part VII [...]